I'm saving a lot on gas...but my loan payments are a lot higher than they would be for a normal economy car; non hybrid. Prius?

YOU miss the whole big thread and _we're_ being asses? Do a Google Groups search.

We're not talking about luxury, we're talking about size. The Prius is specified a midsize car, not a subcompact or compact.

Well, no. What are you basing that on? The passenger compartment of the Prius is about the size of a Camry, and when I bought my 2004 Prius it cost almost exactly the same as a comparably equipped Camry. The ones you've listed are all smaller.

No, if it were not for its hybrid portion, it's in line with the Camry and the Accord.

I never saw my initial post, post. Nor did I see any replies until resending my 2nd post; which i assumed was the first.

Would you two consider stop being ass*!*'s for a few moments and sending me the replies to the initial post?

What is it a luxury car? If it were not for it's hybrid portion it's inline with the Honda Civic, the Dodge Neon, and the Toyota Corolla.

Zeek, After your first ...and second post, your grammar and syntax remained so screwed up that I wonder that anyone was able to figure out what you were asking. Are you trying to say you own a Prius, and wonder why it's so expensive, or just WHAT? and if you're trying to ask a question, it might behoove you to speak a little more politely, and not call the other members of the ng "ass(!)s" if you want to hear a polite answer. Remember, members aren't required to answer your questions, and for some odd reason, don't respond well to being called "ass(!)s".

"Zeek" opin'd thus:

I'm saving a lot on gas...and my loan payments are pretty cheap, as they would be for a normal economy car; but I have an xB!

Starting tomorrow, I'm saving quite a bit more on gas...and my loan payments are nothing 'cause I'll be riding my paid-for R1100S BMW.

-Don (wondering what's the point -- and feeling deja-vu; AGAIN)

You may want to get yourself a better newsfeed, then.

you might have missed it because you replied to (and changed the subject) a thread about the 2006-2007 Prius' MP3/CD player, so your post and all replies may have been seen as in that thread.

Dodge no longer has the Neon, but it was a compact car. Both the Honda Civic and the Toyota Corolla are also compact cars.

The Prius since the 2004 model year has been a midsize car, comparable to the Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.

seems like a good time to repost the Corolla vs. Prius comparison again...

Based on an older post:

using US figures

2007 Prius: Camry and Camry Hybrid: Corolla: I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the Corolla... The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better comparison is to the Camry. And the EPA tests are standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to city or highway to highway or combined to combined).

Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius

--------------------------------------------- Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0 Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8 CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4 Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7 all listings in cu. ft.

EPA MPG Car City Highway

----------------------- Prius 60 51 Camry 24 33 CamryH 40 38 Corolla 30 38

150,000 EPA miles, @ $3/gallon: Prius @ 60MPG (city): 2500 gallons, $7500 Camry @ 24MPG (city): 6250 gallons, $18750, diff +$11250 to Prius CamryH @ 40MPG (city): 3750 gallons, $11250, diff +$3750 to Prius Corolla @ 30MPG (city): 5000 gallons, $15000, diff +$7500 to Prius Prius @ 51MPG (highway): 2941 gallons, $8824 Camry @ 33MPG (highway): 4545 gallons, $13625, $4811 diff to Prius CamryH @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius Corolla @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius

But since you are comparing to a Corolla, we should use an accurate comparison of the Prius and the Corolla, which means comparible options. Since the Prius is an automatic (eCVT) v4 engine (MSRP $22795 including the $620 Delivery, Processing, and Handling fee), I'll use automatic Corolla LE (v4 engine) (MSRP $16935 with same $620 DPH fee).

Then start adding in options. It looks like a number are standard between the Corolla LE and the Prius: Power Windows, Power Door Locks, Engine Immobilizer, Power Side Mirrors (Prius' is heated too), AC, Remote Keyless Entry, 6 Speaker AM/FM/CD, Tilt Steering Wheel, and Dual front airbags.

The Prius also includes ABS with tire pressure monitors, Traction Control, Cruise Control, side and curtain air bags, a Rear Spoiler (it's small, but it's there,) and Alloy wheels, which the Corolla LE doesn't have standard, but available as options. ABS/tire pressure monitor/traction control is package AB (MSRP $390), Cruise contol is only available in the audio value package VV (MSRP $200) (this will replace the Corolla's AM/FM/CD with a AM/FM/6 disc CD (same speakers) so we add $589 for a 6-disc CD changer accessory to the Prius (which then has a 7- disc CD capacity fyi)). Rear Spoiler accessory RF for the Corolla is $425, and Alloy Wheels are package AW (accessory price $499, package MSRP $390). The side airbags is package BE (MSRP $655). To summarize, 390+200+425+390+655 = $2060 to add to the Corolla to make it comparable to the Prius, while adding $589 to make it comparable to the Corolla.

So that's 16935+2060 = $18995 for the Corolla LE w/ the appropriate options and accessories. The Prius with the 6-disc changer is

22795+589 = $23384. The difference in MSRP is $4389 more for the Prius than the Corolla.

Now, there's also tax incentives for the Prius. The US Federal Income tax Hybrid Credit comes into effect, which for the 2007 Prius purchased now through March 31, 2007 is $1575.

There's also state incentives, depending on where you live (CO gives a $3,013 credit for a 2007 Prius (see for instance), but I'll ignore those state incentives for now sinceit's location dependent.So with the current $1575 Fed income tax credit as stated above, theprice difference drops from $4389 to $2814. So, if you always drove your car according to the EPA highway test cycle, and gasoline was a stagnant $3/gallon over the time it takes you to drive 150,000 miles, and you purchased a vehicle today, and ignoring sales or excise taxes (based on the vehicle price): To purchase the Prius you'd spend $2814 more than on the comparable Corolla LE, but after 150,000 highway miles you'd spend $3018 more on the Corolla LE than on the Prius.

So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel use, you'd pay $204 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the

2007 Prius.

YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more attractive.

See also:

Nope. I've owned Corollas since '84. Although the Prius looks about the same size on the outside (I don't have the exact dimensions on hand. but they look approx. the same to me - just different configuration), it's bigger on the inside. I don't know exactly how they did it, but the Prius's interior is definitely roomier than that of the Corolla.

Cathy

Yeah, a number of people have commented that the Prius is a Tardis. (for those who don't follow Doctor Who, a Tardis is much larger on the inside than it is on the outside...)

Dimensions (in.)Overall height/width/length 58.7 / 67.9 / 175.0Wheelbase 106.3 Ground clearance 5.6 Passenger volume (cu. ft.) 96.2

Dimensions (in.)Overall height/width/length 58.5 / 66.9 / 178.3Wheelbase 102.4 Ground clearance 5.7 EPA passenger volume (cu. ft.) 90.3 (or 88.5 with power moonroof)

So, the Prius is barely taller than the Corolla, but has less ground clearance (so more useable vertical space). The Prius is wider than the Corolla, but also shorter than the Corolla.

My 2004 Prius cost about the same as the comparably equipped Camry I would have bought instead.

You're welcome, but what I sacrificed was cargo space, and between the tax incentives and lower fuel bills, I can live with that.

" snipped-for-privacy@kluge.net" opin'd thus:

Prius is TARDIS??

(Note all-caps; it's an acronym -- Time And Relative Dimension (or Dimensions) In Space)

NO! xB is TARDIS!!

For the sedan version, the engineering team started with the seating dimensions (well before they considered the power train) and built the car around that, according to

I imagine the process was similar for the current model.

Mike

Actually, my wife and I bought hybrid back in 2002 because we didn't know for sure what was going to happen to the price of gasoline, but we knew it wasn't going to be good. Back then it was $1.50 US per gallon and the wisdom was we would have to drive over 200K miles to recover the hybrid premium. We've seen the price of gas go up to $3 US and come back down to $2.20, now going back up. If gas averaged $2.50 US per gallon and we've averaged 45 mpg instead of 25 mpg (most of our driving is around town, which is less than ten miles across), we've burned about 1700 gallons at a cost of about $4200 US instead of 3000 gallons at a cost of $7500. Saving about $3000 in gasoline so far has gone a long way toward paying for the hybrid system. And the Prius is both a fantastically enjoyable car to drive and by far the most reliable car I've ever owned.

Did I mention the resale value?

Mike

The April car issue of CR says the depreciation has been virtually nil since the '04. The resale price nearly equaling the MSRP back then. That's amazing.

Cathy

No, I buy hybrid because I want to reduce my pollution footprint and help conserve oil, whether it is foreign or domestic.

Not costly at all compared to the Camry, Accord, Acura, or Lexus that I would have bought instead.

I'm afraid I don't follow you there. As I see it, the costs of fueling the car are proportional to the fuel consumption times the cost per gallon. If X consumes 4000 gallons to go 100K miles (25 mpg) and Y consumes 2200 gallons to go 100K miles (45 mpg), the operator buys an extra 1800 gallons to use car X for 100K miles. At $1 per gallon that is an additional $1800, but at $3 per gallon it is an additional $5400 over the course of 100K miles. If the price should rise to $4 per gallon the difference would rise to $7200. In 2002, I don't recall many people venturing gasoline would cost $3 per gallon. $2 was considered wild-eyed.

To make the most direct comparison, look at the conventional Camry and the hybrid Camry. The hybrid power train adds almost exactly $5000 to the price of a comparably equipped Camry SE. The conventional Camry with AT is rated

22 mpg in town, while the hybrid version is rated 40 mpg. Over the span of 100K miles the conventional Camry will want 4500 gallons, while the hybrid will want 2500. At $3, the extra 2000 gallons will cost the city driver of the conventional Camry $6000... $1000 US more than the hybrid version cost initially. Even figuring in the time value of the extra $5000, the hybrid has paid for itself within the first 85K miles. Slower as the price of gasoline goes down, faster as the price goes up.

Mike

The state of Colorado already has a calculation for the incremental cost increase of the hybrid system in the Camry as compared to a non- hybrid (data provided by the Toyota regional distributor). This incremental amount is used to calculate the state of Colorado Alternate Fuel income tax credit.

incremental price difference in Colorado for a Hybrid Camrycompared to a similar non-hybrid Camry is $2,665.

That was what the experts were saying in 2002, when we bought our first one. Gas was $1.50 per gallon. I think you got the numbers right when you ran them: $4000 x 20 nickles/dollar x 1 mile/nickle [difference] = 80,000 miles.

80,000 *is* a lot of nickles but not a whole lot of miles. The doubling in cost of the gasoline halved the payback period. If you re-run it with some really ludicrous price, you'll see the relationship is proportional

As you point out, the details of amortizing the gasoline savings vs. the interest paid on the hybrid premium blurs the picture a bit. I'm pretty sure the numbers stay in the ballpark though. I'd need more sleep to run that!

Mike

The hybrid will last an estimated 200,000 miles with only an estimated reduction in fuel efficiency of 2% without major surgery. Without any tax break considerations let's say brand new cost is $24,000. 24,000 / 200,000 =

12 cents a mile. The non-hybrid will last an estimated 120,000 miles and for argument sake will only lose 2% without major surgery. Initial cost $20,000. 20,000 / 120,000 = 16.6 or 17 cents a mile.

If both owners like to trade their vehicles in at 50,000 miles, subtract vehicle depreciation at that point. 50,000 X 17 cents per mile = $8500 for the non-hybrid and 50,000 X 12 cents per mile = $6000. $20,000 - $8500 = $11,500 what the non-hybrid is worth. $24,000 - $6000 = $18,000 what the hybrid is worth. Hybrid owner buys another one and forks over $6000 plus trade. Non-hybrid owner buys another one and forks over $8500 plus trade. Sales tax of 5% on $8500 = $425. Sales tax of 5% on $6000 = $300. Fuel cost for non-hybrid traded in at 50,000 = (50,000 / 30 mpg @ 2.00 per gallon) $3333. Fuel cost for hybrid traded in at 50,000 = (50,000 / 40 mpg @ 2.00 per gallon) $2500. Hybrid owner spent $833 less for same distance traveled, spent $125 less on sales tax on the new second vehicle, and loss $2500 less at trade-in time. $2500 + $125 + $833 = $3458. A loan on $4000 more than the non-hybrid averages $458 when an average of interest rates and average of duration are taken into account. The end result is eerily similar to the first federal tax break