Turbo/ Engine Failure/ Sludge/ 2001 V70 T5

This post is being submitted for two reasons: One as a warning and, two as a request for others in my situation to respond with their experience/advice. I am a mother of two and purchased a Volvo "demo"

2001 V70 T5 Wagon in August of 2001. The car had approximately 6, 700 miles on it when I purchased it. This was my first experience with a Volvo. One of the selling points during the transaction was the 7,500 mile recommended oil change intervals for Volvos. It was actually pitched as a money saving perk. Before the first oil service on the vehicle was scheduled I doubled checked the owner's manual to verify the 7,500 mile oil change interval. Indeed, the recommended oil change interval for my car is 7,500 miles.

Everything was going along fine, I'd been following the 7,500 mile oil change intervals, and I loved my car. Until...approx. June of 2003 when I took the car in for service at the local dealership for some warranty work and a standard oil change. The car was at approx. 47,500 miles and I wanted to have it checked out thoroughly before the warranty ran out at 50,000 miles. During this service, they replaced the throttle body and did a normal oil change. In addition, my receipt showed a detail for a turbo fluid leak and seal replacement (the cost was covered under warranty). The dealership service department didn't tell me that I needed to be concerned with these repairs on the turbo and I didn't think much of it at that time. However, 3 months later, when my vehicle approached approx. 52, 300 miles, I was leaving the office for lunch when I noticed a large amount of smoke coming from the tailpipe. My car was just out of warranty so I immediately drove to the closest Certified Volvo repair shop which is approx 1 mile from my office. The owner of the shop came out to take a look at my car and said, "Well, you're not gonna like this, but it's your turbo." to which I said "Is that expensive?" and he replied unfortunately, yes." I called the local dealership from the independent Volvo repair shop to find out if they could help me by contacting Volvo to see if they would cover it because I had just had it in for service and it was just over the warranty limit. They (the dealership) responded by saying that if it was out of warranty they were certain that Vovlo would not cover it and I would be responsible for the repairs.

Reluctantly, I paid for the necessary repairs which totaled approx. $1,000 to replace the turbo including labor. I explained to the independent Vovlo repair shop that I'd been following the 7,500 mile interval for oil changes. They immediately told me that they do not recommend this to their customers and advised that I begin changing the oil at 3,000 mile intervals. I took their advice and began doing business with them from that day on. I have had two more oil changes performed by them and during each of these visits they noticed that there was a build up of oil in and around my "oil parts"(for lack of a better term).

On New Year's Day (2004) my husband and I noticed oil on our driveway that seemed to be coming from the Volvo. We checked the oil (although it wasn't due for service) and found that indeed it had oil but it was registering just below the operating level on the dipstick. It was a holiday so we had to wait until the following morning to call the Vovlo shop to schedule an appointment. My car was now at approx.

61,000 miles. The result of our appointment the following day was gruesome. The mechanic confirmed that I had an oil leak and recommended replacing the rear and front oil cams along with the timing belt which was drenched with oil (although the timing belt normally would not be changed until 105,000 miles). I authorized the new repairs which were estimated to run $1200. We left the car for the repair work to be completed. I received a call from the repair shop on Monday morning which caused us further stress.

The mechanic who was performing the needed repairs found a large amount of "sludge" and build up in and around the area he was working in. In addition, upon examining the engine he found even more sludge. At this point, the mechanic didn't feel comfortable with only replacing the rear and front cam seals and timing belt. This local shop has a great reputation and I believe they really look out for their customers. With that in mind, I asked what they would recommend and they came up with two scenarios for me to choose from. 1) I could replace the engine with a used engine (which they highly recommended as being the best solution for this terrible sludge problem), however the price would have been approx. $6700 with labor. or 2) they could try to clean the engine and its surrounding parts by ordering some special tools from Volvo. The total price for these repairs including the seal cams and timing belt would be $1700. My husband and I really wanted to go for it and replace the engine, however, the $6700 price tag prevented our doing so. Especially, because we had just invested in the new turbo just 3 months prior. We opted for the second choice and had the engine cleaned to the best of their ability.

I now have my car back and am pursuing my legal options with regard to being reimbursed for the repairs which I feel are not my fault and and replacement or settlement fees for this car. Thankfully, I have all of my documented oil changes and repair work receipts. It is the opinion of my mechanic and several others in the shop that the car is basically ruined. I can't tell you how frustrated we are with this situation. I can only say that I wish that the dealership or Volvo had advised that I change my oil every 3,000 miles, especially, because my car has a turbo. I would like to receive responses/opinions to this message from anyone with knowledge or experience with any similar case or mechanical repairs. Thank you in advance for your input.

Reply to
Shelby
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It's really too bad that they tell you 7500 miles, that's a ridiculously long interval for such a high performance engine. Anything with a turbocharger should get an oil change at least every 3000 miles with conventional oil, or 4000-5000 with a quality synthetic, going any longer than that is asking for trouble and will reduce the life of your engine considerably. Using the intervals they list in the manual will make the car last through the warranty but after that you're screwed.

Reply to
James Sweet

Volvo did the same thing with the old D24 Diesel engine in 240 and 740 Diesels/Turbodiesels. They said you could go 7500 miles between changes, when 3,000 is the absolute max. Those engines built up sludge like nothing else, and worse even, the rings would stick at 160k miles every damn time.

Change the oil at reccomended intervals, 160k before rebuild. Change oil every 3,000 miles, 300k + (one with a million + in Sweeden). Thank you volvo for reccomending so many owners ruin their engines.

Mike

Reply to
Mike "Rotor" Nowak

That is indeed a sad state of affairs. I'm assuming you're in the US and that both your dealer and your friendly local mechanic by default used mineral oil? That in itself would not be a good idea for a turbocharged engine, IMO. Some of the sludge (if not all) can be caused by oil coking around the turbo cooling lines where the oil temps run extremely high. Synthetic oil does not have a tendency to coke as easily as mineral oil and therefore is highly recommended in turbo applications.

Turbos are fun, but there are responsibilities that come with them:

  1. Proper warm up. Do not drive the car hard after it's just been started. The oil is thick and does not circulate well yet and therefore does not offer sufficient protection to engine and turbo. This actually applies to all engines, not just turbocharged ones.
  2. Proper cool down. After spirited driving, the turbo is very hot and so is the oil. NEVER shut off the engine immediately in such conditions. This will lead to oil coking due to extremely high temperatures around the turbo cooling lines. It is best to take it easy for the last couple of miles or idle the engine for a few minutes before shutting off. I understand some cars have after-run cooling pumps that help prevent this issue, but it doesn't alleviate the problem completely. Not sure if your T5 has one or not.
  3. Proper lubrication, ie. synthetic oil changed often. Was the 7.5K mile change interval indicated for regular or severe service? Most people qualify for the severe interval which is usually half the standard interval.

I wish your Volvo dealer told you all this before or when you bought the car, but of course they wouldn't want to discourage you from making a purchase. They just want to sell you the car, and then fix it for you at high price after the warranty is over.

Similar story with Audis sold in the US these days. They recommend 10K mile oil change interval (free for the first 50K miles). But what does that free oil change include? Mineral oil of course. Wonder how many of those 1.8T and 2.7T engines come back needing a new turbo at some point? My 1.8T gets an oil change every 5K miles, synthetic of course. It's chipped and I drive it hard, but I also firmly adhere to the three points above.

FYI, Volvo dealers in Europe use synthetic oil, although the change interval is up to 20K km by now (12.5K miles) or 1 year, whichever comes first.

As far as suing Volvo... I don't have much experience in that. I guess it's worth a try if you find a good lawyer. Dealers should be mandated to use synthetic oil in turbo applications or extended drain applications, IMO. Mercedes in the US already lost a class-action suit for letting their customers run their cars for 15K+ miles on mineral oil and ruining their engines as a result.

I wish you good luck.

Cheers,

Pete

Reply to
Pete

"Shelby" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

I don't have a Volvo Turbo myself, but it all sounds very strange to me who live in Volvoland. What type of oil did they put in? A fully synthetic should last much longer than 7,500 miles. I can't imagine that the proper oil would build that amount of sludge had they not used the wrong kind of oil, or maybe the engine had an internal water leak or something. The oil change intervals are generally two or three times longer in Europe than in the US, the oil is two or three times more expensive too. Nobody changes oil at 5,000 km/3,000 miles in Sweden, but often use synthetic oil. Just my two cents, /per

Reply to
per

snip snip.

Firstly this is bad luck.

Overall I feel that the root ofthe problem has been the use of the wrong oil throughout the life of the car. This extreme sludgiing you speak of could certainly have blocked the PCV system and blown out the cam seals, and possibly carboned the turbo and caused the seal to blow here too.

Volvo have always recommended a semi or fully synthetic oil for the T5 due to the heat and high loads the turbo charged engine puts on the oil- i.e. an oil that can resist the high temperatures and isnt prone to sludging.

It seems to me that your car has been on a diet of poor quality dino oil since it was new, which has sludged even though 7500 miles isnt a great distance for any oil to last (we have 20k intervals for some cars in the UK- madness but thats another story!)

Any half decent oil wouldnt have sludged and blocked the engine with this change interval.

So I would suggest checking up with the dealer who has been servicing this car to begin with and check what oil they have been using.

I regually see '94 on T5's with upwards of 150k miles on them on the original turbo and engines clean as a whistle but they have been on a proper diet of top quality synthetic oil.

Tim..

Reply to
Tim (Remove NOSPAM. Registry corupted, reformated HD and l

I want to be in the oil change business once I go to North America.

3000 mile intervals I last used in my racing motor bike, not in a family car.

I am using my second T5 and fourth high performance Volvo and have never had oil changed in any of them sooner than 15000 km, i.e., 9400 miles I believe, currently I do in 20000 km (12500 mi) intervals. No sludge, no degraded performance, no oil lost. Just works like a horse. I use decent oil, though: Castrol's best racing synthetic (the bugger costs more per bottle than my favourite scotch); would never even consider any of the sludgy minerals.

I am not a technician, dare not diagnose your problem by the symptoms, but I would not be surprised if it were due to the low quality of oil rather than to infrequent change.

Reply to
puffdawg

Seems like people in the UK are so obsessed with having a new car that it's only natural for long oil change intervals to be done, once the car is a few years old nobody wants it anyway. Still the fact is engines and oil haven't changed *that* much in the last decade or two, and the cleaner and fresher your oil is the longer the engine will last. There's a point where you'll achieve optimum life per dollar spent on oil, but few can agree when that is.

Reply to
James Sweet

The thing is, your average consumer here in the US uses oil that costs around $1-$2 a quart, not high quality racing oil. Running cheap oil in a high performance engine is bad in the first place, trying to run it for a long period of time is worse.

Reply to
James Sweet

Exactly, my '95 854T5 is now at 257000 km and is still on its first turbo and gets it oil changes at 15000km. Unfornately this won't help Shelby much.

Shelby, go get 'm! These cars should run 300.000km or so when properly cared for.

Kirth

Reply to
Kirth Gersen

In regards to your VW/Audi spinoff on the 1.8T engine. VW puts sythetic in their turbomotors from the factory, and they are suppose to change it with synthetic.... at least this is what VW dealers have told me (I have a turbo diesel Golf as my personal car... my parents have a 960, which they bought to AVOID the turbo related issues and precautions of the 940T, we also had a

That is indeed a sad state of affairs. I'm assuming you're in the US and that both your dealer and your friendly local mechanic by default used mineral oil? That in itself would not be a good idea for a turbocharged engine, IMO. Some of the sludge (if not all) can be caused by oil coking around the turbo cooling lines where the oil temps run extremely high. Synthetic oil does not have a tendency to coke as easily as mineral oil and therefore is highly recommended in turbo applications.

Turbos are fun, but there are responsibilities that come with them:

  1. Proper warm up. Do not drive the car hard after it's just been started. The oil is thick and does not circulate well yet and therefore does not offer sufficient protection to engine and turbo. This actually applies to all engines, not just turbocharged ones.
  2. Proper cool down. After spirited driving, the turbo is very hot and so is the oil. NEVER shut off the engine immediately in such conditions. This will lead to oil coking due to extremely high temperatures around the turbo cooling lines. It is best to take it easy for the last couple of miles or idle the engine for a few minutes before shutting off. I understand some cars have after-run cooling pumps that help prevent this issue, but it doesn't alleviate the problem completely. Not sure if your T5 has one or not.
  3. Proper lubrication, ie. synthetic oil changed often. Was the 7.5K mile change interval indicated for regular or severe service? Most people qualify for the severe interval which is usually half the standard interval.

I wish your Volvo dealer told you all this before or when you bought the car, but of course they wouldn't want to discourage you from making a purchase. They just want to sell you the car, and then fix it for you at high price after the warranty is over.

Similar story with Audis sold in the US these days. They recommend 10K mile oil change interval (free for the first 50K miles). But what does that free oil change include? Mineral oil of course. Wonder how many of those 1.8T and 2.7T engines come back needing a new turbo at some point? My 1.8T gets an oil change every 5K miles, synthetic of course. It's chipped and I drive it hard, but I also firmly adhere to the three points above.

FYI, Volvo dealers in Europe use synthetic oil, although the change interval is up to 20K km by now (12.5K miles) or 1 year, whichever comes first.

As far as suing Volvo... I don't have much experience in that. I guess it's worth a try if you find a good lawyer. Dealers should be mandated to use synthetic oil in turbo applications or extended drain applications, IMO. Mercedes in the US already lost a class-action suit for letting their customers run their cars for 15K+ miles on mineral oil and ruining their engines as a result.

I wish you good luck.

Cheers,

Pete

Reply to
Rob Guenther

Yes. This is true. They come with Castrol SLX 0w-30 from the factory nowadays, AFAIK. That's why I find it so pathetic that starting with the first oil change, the dealer will put you on an unhealthy diet of dino oil. Of course I knew better and always brought my own synthetic oil with me when bringing the car for these "free" oil changes, but there are many people that don't know or don't care, and AoA/VoA doesn't care either.

All said and done, I still love my 1.8T, just not the dealer network. ;-)

Regards,

Pete

Reply to
Pete

It looks as though you are looking for people who have outcomes in courts which have been favourable for people in comparable situations?.

I doubt that you are interested in the technicalities of what could have gone wrong but the technicalities are important to pursuing recompense. Volvo are quite good at meeting partial (about half) of costs in some cases of premature failure but you would need a good Volvo *main* dealer who is prepared to argue the case.

I have owned three Volvo's (currently V70 T5). Two Volvox were turbos and so was a Nissan. In all turbo variants I have covered about 200K miles and never had a turbo related problem. I frequent many Volvo web boards and turbo failures are not totally unheard of but are IMO very rare. There are some oil leak issues at very high mileages but total failures are rare.

Your first task is to look through every service receipt that you have and list the make and type of oil billed on each one. Volvo do not specify oil manufacturer but the oil must at least meet their minimum standard. Semi-synthetic, of suitable standard, is the minimum for a turbo and if any oil of lower standard has been used you have a case of non compliance with the dealer\s who carried out the work.

I live in the UK therefore have never really known what the US refers to as Dyno but I guess it is the type we use in low performance petrol engines. Such oil should never be used in Turbo or performance cars and if it has been used it can coke up in a turbo engine and will certainly cause premature failure.

Oil sludge is normally the term given to the white\grey froth which looks like shaving foam and by users is seen in the oil filler cap and on the dipstick. Providing there are no faults allowing water to mix with oil, the usual cause is use patterns. Oil will take on moisture from internal engine condensation if common use is short trips in a cold climate. A regular short trip user falls in the category of extreme conditions, by use patterns, and oil should be changed very frequently. If only short trips which do not allow protracted running at optimum engine temperatures is combined with Dyno oil then it is a recipe for disaster with a performance turbo engine.

We had a poster on a Volvo board recently asking about the creation of sludge in a non turbo vehicle. As suggested he changed the oil for a better grade but the sludge was back within three weeks. His daily use pattern of driving 1.5 miles to and from the railway station was the cause and as soon as he mixed in some longer runs the moisture evaporated out of the oil and the problem was solved.

My concentration on use patterns is simply because barring faults it is the cause of sludge in almost every instance. If you pursue the issue of compensation you will almost certainly be asked and because you are the only one who knows your use pattern the onus may be upon you to inform the dealer so that service intervals are shortened.

Liam

Reply to
Noone

Hehe... yup. Dino oil is short for dinosaur oil, which means it's the basic mineral oil, not semi-synth, not full-synth. ;-)

As far as her usage patterns, if she managed to put on 52K miles in just over two years, my thinking is the car was driven a lot, probably quite a bit of highway driving as well. But maybe she'll come back to verify this for us...

Lastly, I'm being picky here (sorry about that), but I'm not sure that your definition of sludge is accurate. The type of sludge that she is most likely experiencing is caused by poor quality oil not being able to withstand very high temperatures. This results in dark/black carbon-type deposits inside engine and oil lines. These deposits can effectively clog up the oil lines to the point where turbo is no longer sufficiently cooled/lubricated.

The "white froth" accumulating under the oil cap is a separate problem which is just caused by moisture condensation that did not have a chance to burn off due to frequent short trips, as you well explained.

Best regards,

Pete

Reply to
Pete

Hi Pete,

Thought it was. I haven't used that stuff for decades. I have always thought of it as cheap rubbish with potentially expensive problems waiting to happen.

I know the type of sludge you are referring to which is a sticky black tar like mess. This is often caused by low tolerance to heat and the oil is over-cooked many times. Used to see it a lot 30+ years ago when engines were not very sophisticated and oils pre-historic. It used to collect in a sort of black gum similar to softish bitumen. When the UK had more than it's share of cars which rusted away the non hardened old oil stuck well when painted on to the underside of the car and was good at rust prevention albeit not very eco friendly.

If the oil in that T5 has deteriorated down to those levels then something serious has been wrong throughout the vehicles life. Consistent use of dino oil could have done it but I still wouldn't rule out use patterns. We have two cars.... A peugeot 3.0ltr coupe (24valve) and a V70 T5. Both have fully synthetic oil but from lifelong habit I take both out at least once a fortnight and when hot give them some max revs treatment. The Volvo especially as it's an auto needs a lot of spirited driving or the revs will rarely go over

3K and I think that is long term bad.

In the UK the old advertisement for second user autos of "one lady owner, very low mileage" is now a warning and "company lease car, mainly motorway miles" is attractive. Modern cars thrive on endurance runs and die on short runs. BTW I have neighbours who clock up large mileages but judging by the number of times they are on and off their drives per day most trips are to schools and shops within 1 to 3 miles away.

Liam

Reply to
Noone

_______________________________________________________________________________

Thank you to everyone who has posted a response thus far. I am getting some good feedback and I really appreciate it. FYI - I just called the local dealership that performed my oil changes prior to my switch to an independent shop and they confirmed that they used regular 10W30 oil in my car each time. They said that they only use synthetic oil at the owner's request because it is more costly. My question is, should I have known or been told that I had a choice between regular or synthetic? I had no idea until I started reading on this forum and others like it, that I may not have been getting the best oil for my turbo and engine. I'm going to post some photos of the sludge and seals which were removed from my car for you all to look at over the weekend and would appreciate any feedback you may have on what you see etc. I'm learning a lot. Unfortunately, it is most likely too late for this car. Thanks again for all of your input.

Shelby

Reply to
Shelby

Thank you to everyone who has posted a response thus far. I am getting some good feedback and I really appreciate it. FYI - I just called the local dealership that performed my oil changes prior to my switch to an independent shop and they confirmed that they used regular 10W30 oil in my car each time. They said that they only use synthetic oil at the owner's request because it is more costly. My question is, should I have known or been told that I had a choice between regular or synthetic? I had no idea until I started reading on this forum and others like it, that I may not have been getting the best oil for my turbo and engine. I'm learning a lot. Unfortunately, it is most likely too late for this car. Thanks again for all of your input.

Reply to
Shelby

Shelby,

My 1999 T5 handbook states that the oil used should\must meet the quality standard ACEA A3 for turbo vehicles.

It then goes on to state that semi-synthetic or full synthetic oils which meet the standard may also be used,

It appears to be a typical non specific cover-all which will cover all oils from regular up to the best . I have never used anything lower than semi-sythetic since I bought my first turbo car in 1985 and have been aware since then that normal UK practice is to use semi-synthetic in all but relatively low powered standard vehicles.

The oil which is also used to lubricate the turbo and it is a source of enormous heat which will cause problems with low quality oils. The question of whether you should have been given the option is difficult because the dealer will have operated (should have) within Volvo guidelines and they must be presumed to have a knowledge of the vehicle and climate conditions within your locality. The 10W30 figure refers to viscosity within temperature ranges and that is the climate factor.

You are obviously desperately unhappy that a vehicle which has an engine which should have been good for 3 or 4 times the mileage you have covered has failed but your only possible recourse may be to have the engine examined by a qualified engineer who is able and qualified to appraise what went wrong and prepare a case for court proceedings. I have a distinct feeling that you will not get very far and the fact that you used a non franchise garage may count against you.

It is an irony but buyers of second user cars often change the oil after purchase to full synthetic , drive the car hard for a thousand miles and then change again just to remove any possible residues. Normally it's done immediately on purchase because it can show problems including oil leaks and we can go back for a full refund within 14 days. I know it doesn't help you but regular (dino) oil can be problematic.

I would like to see the photos. It shouldn't have happened but it was not really your responsibility to know about oils and you have mine and probably a lot of other people's sympathy.

Liam

Reply to
Noone

Well there you have it then, 'regular' oil is the cause. If a quality synthetic had been used your car would undoubtably be running sweetly and you would be many thousand dollars better off.

The change interval is not the issue here, if you had changed the oil at

3000 the problem would still be there, just less severe. The fact is these engines were never meant to run on mineral oil and the garages WOULD have known that.
Reply to
Me

If this is a Volvo dealership, then they should have used the appropriate oil for the car, wether or not it was more expensive. The dealership is supposed to service these cars according to Volvo's specifications. Unless you said "use cheaper oil", then the Volvo dealer is at fault.

Cheers,

-+JLS

Reply to
Seagull

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