Re: GM, Ford reputations take a hit

My experience too Mike, although I had a GM 63 6-CYL Chev II that was one tough car that was quite economical on fuel. I sold it at 95k miles still with the original brakes, clutch and as delivered engine. It did need a new clutch and brakes badly when I traded it in. The dealer noticed that and complained, I responded "what did you expect at 95k miles on the original parts". I towed a 1,500 lb trailer for about 15k of those miles, including across Canada and in the western mountains.

However it was a crude car in comparison to the cars since the mid 80s. Brakes that pulled severely to the side when water splashed on a front wheel, a 3-spd stick shift with no syncro on 1-st gear, no front sway bar to stop front leaning on corners, too small terribly weak Firestone tires that were failing at 10k miles, rubber front suspension bushings that created a spongy steering feel and one even had to be replaced as it was poorly installed and pulled the car to one side after a turn and even a trunk body seam leak. It also had poorly manufactured overhead valve rockers; three times I had to have a few replaced when they started squeaking, finally GM produced a newer design and all were replaced finally fixing the problem for good. GM's warranty costs on my Chev II must have assured them a loss on my car.

I immediately added a sway bar from the sporty model, soon replaced the tires with a better tire of more reasonable size, and replaced the front steering bushings with much more acceptable ones from Sears. The handling went from poor to quite acceptable, but after 8 years I replaced it with a much better built smaller car Datsun (Nissan), which even it had a few initial problems including a rear engine bearing seal failure at 2k miles that the dealer tried to pass off until oil on the clutch caused it to slip. GM in their wisdom of the time had made the Chev II of later years larger, instead of better, else I would have continued with GM. Chrysler left me in the cold by replacing my '95 Concord with the much heavier 300. I'm relieved that the move to smaller cars is now forcing them to rethink what they manufacture.

Reply to
Some O
Loading thread data ...

You are free to believe whatever you chose, but lets apply some logic that easily disproves your 'many different vehicles' theory for more than one digit being assigned to the US, rather than just one as is the case for other countries.

Most ambulances are build on Ford truck chasses and thus use Ford VIN numbers. A piece of farm equipment, or whatever, would have the manufacture designated by the digit following by the first digit that would be different from each other and different than a car or truck manufacturer. The body, plant, engine etc., numbers would all be different as well. The digit that defines the type of SRS would not even be needed on most. If the number built, of a single manufacturer of a single model, with single engine in a specific assembly plant exceed the six sequential number assigned to those particular vehicles, the check digit is changed allowing for 999,999 more to be built in that plant, of a single manufacturer, of a single model, with single engine

Knowing that, what in the world leads your opinion that it is the number of vehicles that requires the US to use 1, 4 or 5? If that is all of the evidence, as you call it, you found, do more search WBMA. The government body that defines WHICH number, 1, 4 and 5 as they apply to vehicles assembled in the US, is the US Department of Commerce

mike

the reason why there are three different first digits

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The reason for the '5' is that vehicle has less than 40% US content, not to be confused with the NA parts label that applies only to parts.

I'm not sure of the meaning of the 'N' designation without doing more research, but the Mustang since 2005 is currently being built in the former Mazda Flat Rock plant and the manufactures assembly plant designation is "ZVF" not 'FBP' as was the 2004, built in Ford Rouge plant that now building the 2008 Taurus

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Please provide web links to support your view.

That would mean $50 to your favoriate charity.

I did the research for you:

formatting link
Have a great day!

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

But you don't understand the VIN system.

formatting link
You see, it is the first three digits that are important. Each set goes to a particular manufacturer/vehicle type (which is why Mack has 1M1 to 1M4).

That would mean that for all the different types of vehicles from all the different manufacturers, there would be at most 36 x 36 or about 1000 different WMI numbers available for US built-vehicles.

The different manufacturers include, Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mack, Dodge, GMC, Volvo, NUMMI, Honda, Honda motocycles, American LaFrance, Toyota, Lexus, Infinity, Nissan, Catapiler, John Deere, International, Harely Davidson, American Indian, Prevost, VanHool, Artic, Polaris, Suzuki, Motor Coach Industries, Thomas, Freightliner, Olds, Pontiac, Chevy, Hummer, Kawasaki, Suburu, AMC, Jeep, Seagrave, Mercedes, Plymouth, Chrysler, and hundreds of other manufacturers, including trailer makers. And a lot of these makers have more than one VIN, for say buses, chasis only, car, pickup, heavy-duty truck, SUV, etc.

Originally, only one number (1) was assigned to the US. Later 4, then 5 was added. That is why ISO (the people who came up with the VIN system) assigned

1 to the US, 2 to Canada, and 3 to Mexico. It would have been simpler and made more sense if 1, 2 and 3 were assigned to the US, and 4 and 5 to those other North American countries, if ISO knew that the US would need more than one.

The other thing you'll notice is that when you look at VINs, all the ones for a particular type of vehicle for a particular manufacturer start with the same digit. Ford uses around 73% US components in its vehicles. One would think that some vehicles are more than 70 and some less, like 63% (e.g., Ford Mustang according to newspaper reports). But all Fords have VINs that start with 1.None for the same type of vehicle in that brand start with

4 or 5. In addition, sometimes Mercury or Lincoln had to go back to get another WMI number for a new line of vehicles, like SUVs. So when Mercury or Lincoln builds SUVs, the VINs start with 4 or 5, even though they are built on the exact same assembly line and the reported domestic (US + Canada - I know, you claim the VINs only reflect US content) content is identical across different brands, so it would 70% for a nearly identical Ford SUV. Even the Hummer gets a 5.

Finally, if you read the actual US code (the code is the actual regulations that are written by US gov't departments required by US laws), there is not one word about content in the description about VINs.

All you have been able to do is say that your retired engineer friend said that the different digits indicate different content. You obviously didn't know, so what makes you think that a different engineer would know? That's something for the marketing or legal departments to know, not the engineers. You have not posted anything that backs your claim.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Still having a problem with logic when it comes to VINs I see. Tell me from your source what YOU know to be the number or letter that is applied to the VIN for the engine in a 500? The body code for an F150 RWD and 4WD. How about a E150, or a Lincoln Town Car? How about the letter for the drive type for a Caterpillar dozer, or the engine type on a Harley Fat boy? ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The very crude Yugo from a out of date car company is not worthy of mentioning in an intelligent conservation. I doubt if they lasted more than 2 years here. >:)

Quite a few years I heard this story in the UK. A chap went into a car parts shop and said he wanted a side view mirror for his Yugo. After several seconds of thought the car parts chap said: "OK I'll do that trade."

Reply to
who

As long as there are much better buys than the Smart, such as the Toyota Yaris, DC will not make money on the Smart.

The Smart is inadequate as a single car for two people. Two people can't even do their weekly grocery shopping with it. As a second car for commuting it's OK, but many would find public transport better. In Canada it did sell quite well in the first year, but it's been obvious many sales Iprobably most) were commercial.

Reply to
who

How about the evidence that the first digit of the VIN has anything to do with domestic content? Why don't do you show us where in the US code this is? I've looked on the internet and found nothing to support your claim.

$50 for your favoriate charity, if you do.

I see that you have removed most of my post, without indicating that fact. I guess you can't explain away the points that I made, so you just ignore it.

You can say that 1, 4, and 5 digits mean anything you want. You can continue to believe as long as you want. However, until you are able to provide verifiable evidence to support your beliefs, I choose to go with the verifiable evidence, all of which points to the fact that the US had 1 first, then added 4 and 5 later, as it ran out of WMI numbers.

I am not going to was my time or bandwidth to reply to this thread until you start making sense.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

When did I ever say anything about the US code? Try looking in the right place, WBMA. I might point out you can NOT find anything that would lead you to believe your 'so many different vehicles' theory either because that is not factual. You might also look to the FTC to find the Honda complaint about Toyotas misleading advertising, regarding 1, 4 and 5 as well ;)

Please stop saying I got my information from a other engineer, that is not what I said.. What I did get from him was the place to find the reason for the three different numbers assigned to vehicles assemble in the US, rather than just one.

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:20:12 -0500, Mike Hunter got out the hammer and chisel and etched in the wall:

I dunno - you're top posting, so we have no idea what you said.

formatting link
Read that, or the other 110,000 google hits for why top posting is bad style.

Reply to
PerfectReign

You never did. I found it on my own.

Wow! You can read minds. You need to take more courses, because you are not doing a good job of it.

The National Traffic Saftey Administration code that requires a VIN for every trailer, car, motorcycle, truck, bus and many off-road vehicles (off-road vehicles now have a different ID system). The fact that there are

27,000 WMI codes would lead one to conclude that there are a lot of manufacturers. With the possibility of of 31,000 WMIs (the letters i, q, u, z and o are not used), they are running out.

formatting link
And on further searching, I found:
formatting link
which includes: 'By international agreement, a WMI is assigned according to region. Initially, the United States had all WMI codes that started with the number 1. '"We were assuming we were always going to be 1, originally," Proefke said. "Now we're 1, 4 and 5. And we don't have that many left of 5."

Gee, it seems there is no room for domestic content.

Well, that is what you said before.

Perhaps you can pass the place on to us. I have looked extensively and have not found it.

The FTC had a few documents about "Made in America" and Honda. They had to do with Lawn Mowers.

formatting link
The FTC did not see a problem with Toyota calling cars built in the USA when they had foreign parts:
formatting link
Around the world, there is a shortage of VINs:
formatting link
There is not document I have found that even suggests that VINs have anything to do with US content. In fact, it may be against trade laws to seperate US and Canadian content (which is why they list domestic content as US + Canada).

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Yet in Europe, it is a popular car and quite adequate. That said, I'll have a Fiat waiting for me at the Milan Airport. Not much bigger though.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

or Mexico

XXX

XXX

That ex GM part company that can't make money imports most of their parts they sell to the Big 2.5.

XXXXXX

Toyota is a big parts producer in the USA and also buys many parts from NA companies such as Magna.

Reply to
Just Facts

It was worse than that. Cars before and after WWII, up to the 50s required spark plug cleaning every 2k miles and new points about every 5k miles. Plugs are now much better and oil consumption is very low, much cleaner combustion.. I haven't added oil between changes since the mid 80s and I change oil every 4k mile, twice per year, mainly to remove the acid from our short urban driving in damp weather. Every 1k miles or so the carburetor required a bit of fiddling, if you liked your car to run properly. The exhaust required new rear components every few years, with the SS exhaust systems we haven't had to do any exhaust maintenance since getting our '87 Daytona with SS exhaust. My '95 Concord is setting a record for shocks, the originals are still OK all around. Our previous FWD cars only needed rear shock replacement. Previous to the 80s FWD cars our front shocks needed replacement about every 20 to 30k miles. But disk brakes which are so effective need much more maintenance in the front than those ugly drum brakes.

Reply to
Just Facts

Yes we know that, the Big 2.5 have depended so much on trucks they are now in big trouble. Unfortunately their car selection, particularly from Chrysler is very slim, not enough choice of cars to compete in that category.

As a result Chrysler is into big layoffs, while people like myself don't see a Chrysler model to replace what we have.

formatting link
Chrysler to cut 26,000 jobs> January 29, 2001: 2:35 p.m. ET>

.

How strange of Chrysler to blame the market when they dug themselves a hole by not providing product continuity. I'm sticking with my Concord for now, the longest I've ever kept a car. If for some reason I need a replacement soon it won't be Chrysler because they have no product for me. They did it too themselves.

Today I was in a Toyota dealer which I knew had some connection with my Chrysler dealer. I learned the connection was very close, the same owner who sold his Chrysler dealership last year. Very smart of him, he obviously saw the writing on the wall.

Reply to
Some O

My you are out of date. Sure when I bought my VW in the 1956 it was made in Germany and my Datsun 510 in 1970 it was made in Japan, but things have changed just a bit. Now we have Chrysler's profit (?) going to Germany, with Chrysler and Mercedes sharing many parts.

We had Chrysler using VW engines in their first FWD cars in the late

70s, then in the late 90s Chrysler builds their new 2.7L V6 in Mexico.

We have Ford owning three UK car cripple companies, helping to drain away possible profit from Ford. Fortunately Ford owns Volvo where there is some intelligent direction in their car designs.

We have the two top German car companies, Mercedes and BMW building cars in the USA and shipping some models to Germany. During the 70s thru 90 the Japanese Yen rose so much they had to build more cars in the USA, Canada and Mexico. Eventually they were shipping some cars to Japan from NA. The recent huge drop in the USA $ has made it even more important for the foreign companies to build in the USA employing many local workers. The Japanese car companies prospered, but the Japanese workers suffered.

If it weren't for Japanese cars being built in NAFTA, there would have been far more import vehicles to satisfy the demand that the Big 3 seem reluctant to build for. If the Big 2.5 are to survive it is my opinion they will have to smarten up and build what the customer wants, not continue to shove down the customers throats what the car companies want to build.

Reply to
Just Facts

True, but those electronics give superior performance.

The new auto transmissions do need good maintenance and there have been some poor ones, in the haste to keep up with the compedition.

The old 3 spd manual transmissions were tough, but they were very crude, no syncro on 1st., and clutches were a constant maintenance item. Auto transmissions now shift better than most people can manually shift.

Reply to
Just Facts

While cleaning the plugs, you also cleaned element in the oil bath the air filter. Aside from all of that, at 50,000 miles, if you made it that far, chances are it needed a ring and bearing job too. Anyone remember hot to adjust the valves with solid lifters? Replace the seals on the guides because you were burning oil?

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

While I agree with your comments 110%, Ed, I also remember that back in those days, the majority of us did not drive anything like the mileage we do now. If we measured the life of the car in years, they probably lasted as long, or maybe even longer than they do now. But the maintenance of points, plugs, filters was indeed worse.

For us to drive to Dallas was a major trek. Trains and buses were more used then. We or our children may see those days again.

Reply to
<HLS

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.