Symptoms of a failing tranny?

The 3 speed is pretty reliable, at least compared to the 4 speed. Old fluid can make them shift pretty rough - changing the fluid may well get rid of the problem.

The O/D is not on the shifter. It's a switch to the right because it's electronic, that is, an electronic transmission, controlled by a TCM or Transmission Control Module, and not a selectable gear. The TCM is a computer which can have its firmware upgraded by the dealer. It's easy to miss the switch. Took me a long time and I also erroneously thought I did not have a

You might want to consider checking to make sure you have the latest firmware if, I repeat, if this is the case with you. In other threads, in the last few weeks, I spelled out the modules and the firmware versions.

Are you thinking the shifter will say 1 2 D O/D or something like that? It does not. I made that mistake too. The VIN might sort this out for you. Don't know.

In my case, the firmware solved the very uncomfortable shudder of the transmission beginning to self-destruct because the clutch was engaging too slowly the torque converter. A software mistake with the early transmissions that was found and first corrected around 1995 or so in the tech reports.

I had the pan dropped, the filter replaced with OEM, and used ATF+3 and all the previous problems immediately went away. To upgrade the computer is relatively inexpensive. In fact, the whole thing at a super good dealer was around $130 USD. But be careful. Another dealer could easily charge double and maybe not do such a hot job. Ask around. In my area, I could not find a non-dealer mechanic who really knew or wanted to be bothered by all this which requires special cables and the equipment to flash the EEPROM in the TCM in the pre-1995 Voyagers. And my local dealer was a bit of a jerk so I found a distant dealer who was great, from cartalk.com. Heh, what's a guy going to do when he can't get a straight answer?

Oh, when the car goes into O/D, the engine actually slows down as I just discussed tonight, as a matter of fact. Paradoxically, the highest gear does not need a very fast engine since it's directly coupled. That's why Over-Drive works so well in efficiency. Now am I right or do I have to go into hiding?

And I also only feel three shifts. But a fellow I was discussing this with who used to fly airplanes, so is careful about engines obviously, and be an electronics repairman said that the fourth shift is when the engine slows down. So it's not obvious and even counter-intuitive. In fact, it's the obvious of what you might expect going into fourth gear.

How am I doing? On target or not even in the universe?

hiya,

I had the rough downshift on my Granada (UK) when the donkey was sick and the idle speed was too low, raised the idle speed and the downshift was lovely again.

So you'd see it on a tach but not feel it - because it isn't going to go into O/D under an acceleration condition. It's like that on my Concorde (that has a tach).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

The 4-speed auto shift quadrant says "P R N D 3 L". The 3-speed auto shift quadrant says "P R N D 2 1".

Using that ID guide, which transmission is it?

The "3 shifts" you feel could either be 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, or could be 1-2,

This "knowledge" is not correct.

Not normal.

Define "grabbing".

How often have the fluid and filter been changed and, if it's the 3-speed, the bands been adjusted and the linkage adjustment checked?

Crap sorry, I meant two shifts. I'll make sure today. :o)

That'd make it the three speed I do believe. I'll have to double check.

Crap I think I should've put two shifts. I'll make sure this afternoon. Like I said, on the highway at 100kph she's sitting at just over 3000 rpm. That sounds pretty high if it had an O/D tranny does it not?

I've heard it several times from several sources....

Again, not the only occurance I've heard of...

Grabbing. Upon deceleration (foot off the gas, on the brake) when the tranny downshifts to first the tranny grabs, the revs drop a few hundred rmp, the vehicle lurches forward a bit due to the engine acting as a brake in this case. Grabbing.

To be honest, not very often. This was Dad's van before he passed and he really didn't keep up with maintanance which I'm paying for now (those rear brakes I finished up yesterday were a pain in the ass but worth it, I also noticed two completely rotted out tires). There really hasn't been a hell of a lot of kms put on it since the last ATF change, although I don't know where he had it done or which ATF they used (Chrysler-specific or not). It hasn't been a daily driver in years.

Lots of people heard "The earth is flat" from lots of sources lots of times.

Sounds like a kickdown cable and band adjustment issue.

Do so now.

DS

Alright. Definitely two shifts, first at 40kph, and second at around 75kph. "D 1 2" on the indicator. 100kph at around 2800 rpm. All signs point to a three speed.

Until proven otherwise. ;) Right or wrong, it's still a well documented issue (or non-issue, as the case may very well be).

I'll adjust the bands while I do the fluid/filter, tomorrow with any luck.

Tomorrow will have to do. ;)

Does this mean that "D" represents exactly what? The full spectrum, whatever that might be, from 1 to 4? Or from 1 to 3 and Overdrive then which is the torque converter lockup?

And the "3" is used for what used to be the "2" - for icy conditions as the start gear? Or is L really 1 and maybe 2?

If it's "4" then the torque converter may or may not be locking up? "4" is not automatically Overdrive? It's possible to have Overdrive in either of the two configurations above? So if it were a 4 speed plus Overdrive, is that then really a "5-speed" ???

I don't have an owner's manual and the factory shop manual won't arrive for another week for a Voyager 3.0 L with the 41TE/A604 tranny.

Heh, thanks to the give and take on the group, I did find a shop manual for $20 plus shipping or $25. I guess selling a manual when people needed to get their taxes done is not a great time for the seller, but good for the buyer. Generally the manuals sold for twice this but this one looked a bit worn on the cover though. But as long as it's readable.

Yes. 1-2-3-4, with torque converter lockup in 2, 3 and 4.

Overdrive is not the same as TC lockup.

No, 3 is used to prevent the trans from shifting into 4th (overdrive), and it also raises the 1-2 and 2-3 shift points and the road speed at which TC lockup occurs.

L dramatically raises the 1-2 shift point, and even more dramatically raises the 2-3 shift point, and prevents TC lockup in 2.

It is not a "4 speed plus overdrive".

DS

So it's not possible to start the car in second gear as it used to be with "2" presumably for snowy or ice conditions where less torque was preferable. I rarely used "2" and it did not seem too different from just going a little more slowly in "D." So they just dropped the snow/ice gear? Or is it "3" since it raises the shift points?

Let's see if I can remember this stuff again.

And 3rd gear should stop before 4th but I don't know the specifications, without a manual. Maybe 3rd is good until 70 mph and 4th goes as fast as the engine or vehicle can tolerate. Or possibly 3rd is good to go to even 90 mph. Just guessing.

Probably looking at the actual gear ratios would make this all a bit clearer. When I get ahold of a shop manual, I'll look it up for the A604/41TE for the 1994 Voyager 3.0 L.

MOST back then had the OD on the shift quadrant. Pre OBD2 most firmware was not upgradeable.

$ gears IS 3 shifts. You start in 1st - it shifts to second (shift 1) third)shift 2) and overdrive (shift 3) In between the TC also locks in both third and overdrive - so you can feel 5 shifts if you reallu concentrate.

Don't forget the TC lockup.

I am not sure what you mean by the above. My gear selector says "P R N D 3 L" - where would be the OD? Is that not embedded in the "D" which means gears 1 through 4 with 4 being OD?

There is an electronic switch, below the rear windshield wipers' switches, which allows the O/D to be turned off. This is on a 1994.

About Pre OBD2, that depends. The rough rule of thumb is that if the TCM has dual fins, then it has an EEPROM instead of an EPROM, hence, flash or firmware upgradeable. The vans in my range, pre-1995, require a special harness to be attached to the device which does the readings and the upgrades. The extra equipment required for the upgrading is why I decided to just go to the dealer, a big dealer, who would have all these extra, older devices and capabilities. It's all a bit confusing but I posted a list of years and what engines and body styles can be upgraded going way back, to 1989? It's from the TSB's. Since the TCM is obviously electronic and EEPROMs had been around for some time before this, it's not unusual to find a TCM and A604 tranny with a flashable TCM.

Some of the cars had EPROMs instead of EEPROMs, so I don't know what they did. Maybe they did not need any firmware upgrades. If they did, they would have had to purchase, I assume, an upgraded TCM which is relatively expensive compared to flashing the EEPROM.

It has never been possible to start the car in 2nd gear on an automatic Chrysler product. Some Fords over the years offered this ability.

Driving in slippery conditions is best accomplished in the highest possible gear.

Right. Underdrive means the engine is turning faster than the transmission output shaft. Direct drive means the engine is turning at the same speed as the trans output shaft. Overdrive means the engine is turning slower than the trans output shaft. NOTE this does not account for the final drive, which on a RWD vehicle is external to the transmission (in the rear axle) but which on a FWD vehicle is internal to the transaxle. This is always an underdrive ratio, in that the input shaft (which is the transmission's output shaft) turns faster than the output shaft (i.e., the wheels).

No, when the TC locks it creates a direct connection between the engine and the transmission input shaft, to eliminate the slippage that is present with an unlocked TC, that's all.

That's unique to the electronic 4-speed and certain other electronic transmissions. Most ordinary automatics lock the TC only in the top gear (whatever that might be, 3rd or 4th) and only above a certain road speed.

Correct.

DS

Actually the Chrysler "Autostick" 4 speed transmission allows you to start in second and is a very nice feature for snow/ice conditions when coupled with the 3.5L since the accelerator tip in made it difficult to not spin the wheels in slippery conditions.

Bob