Hi everyone ... I'm looking for some advice for buying a Citroën CX.
I currently own a classic SAAB 900 (of the classic years) and I'm looking to retire that car for weekend use, replacing it with a different daily runner. Having looked around, I'm not very inspired ... Apart from buying another classic SAAB 900, of course :) Aside from the DS, the CX seems to embody everything I'm looking for ... Pretty much another car that will never stop surprising me with how well thought out, designed and put together it is.
The models, variants and trim levels are a bit of a minefield to be honest. What I'd like to know is pretty much which is the model to buy? Failing that, which second model should I buy, while I keep my eye open for that one? I'm after that luxurious looking padded leather interior, but that's about all I would put on the list as my requirements. I have an open mind.
Should I choose an auto or a manual? Should I choose a petrol over a diesel? What are the power and performance specifications of each variant? Is there a sort of "top of the range" model? Are there any special editions I should look out for? What are the common areas of failure?
Lots of questions ... Sorry ... Any advice/answers would be very much appreciated, preferably with links to online pictures.
Paul Halliday ( snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :
Good move... I still miss mine.
Oooh, I likes them. Took one across the Sahara a couple of years ago.
Umm. Don't expect it to be anywhere *near* as well put together as a C900...
OK. Fairly straight forward.
We'll look only at UK-market saloons. s2 (plastic bumpers, 86-on) :- CX20 (2.0 carb, 86 only) - bit gutless, low-spec. TBH, avoid. CX22 TRS (2.2 carb) - good compromise spec, economical (35mpg possible). Worth considering. CX 25DTR Turbo (2.5 turbo diesel, turbo2 with intercooler from 87) - Scarce. 40mpg. Superb, but not the most refined of diesels. CX 25GTi (2.5injection auto) - very nice, but thirsty. 25mpg at best. CX 25GTi Turbo (2.5turbo injection, turbo2 with intercooler from 87) - Fast. 30mpg or 140mph. Can be *stupidly* fast with upgrades... CX 25Prestige (LWB GTi Auto, 9" longer in the rear doors) CX 25Prestige Turbo (LWB turbo) - 5 RHD built... One for sale currently, though.
Later s1 (stainless bumpers) similar range, but no 2.2, some non-turbo diesels. All CXs are getting scarce in good nick, but s1 were less well (?!) rust-protected.
Most likely on a GTi Auto, Turbo or Prestige. Tan or black, some burgundy on LHD cars - dubious taste. Later GTi Auto and 22 "Croisette" special edition had very tasteful, very hard wearing "VIP" black/grey herringbone cloth.
Auto means 25 GTi/Prestige auto only. Clutches can be very heavy, and don't really sit well with the rest of the "CX experience", IMHO - but buy shares in BP.
Your call.
22 - 115bhp
25ie auto - 138bhp but very low geared.
25 turbo - 168bhp TurboD - 120ish bhp, IIRC?
Turbo or Prestige. Prestige Turbo is the holy grail.
22 Croisette is the only one the UK ever got.
Rot.
The 25 pushrod engines are bulletproof - 300,000 miles is not uncommon. The
20/22 OHC are less so, but are much lighter.
Look VERY VERY VERY carefully *all* over the body - particularly sunroof (open it and look all round the aperture), front floors, sills, bonnet and boot edges, door bottoms, door shell front edges, base of the A-pillar as it disappears behind the front wing.
Rear suspension arm bearings go, causing the tyres to wear unevenly. The ride should be *superb* (especially after a C900...) - but if it isn't, new spheres aren't expensive. The hydraulics are utterly reliable with proper maintenance, but the pipes can rot. The foot brakes should feel capable of pulling a 747 down from landing velocity, but the handbrake is awful.
Some cars have 390mm (15.5") TRX wheels - incl all Turbos - with *VERY* expensive tyres. £150-200 *each*. Others have 14". Some 15" 80s/90s/modern Alfa rims fit, and can look very very good.
The first CX you drive will feel *very* odd, so try to drive a few before looking at a serious purchase.
Very seriously consider joining the CCC -
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- also the CX email list - snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com
in article Xns965F82C4CE975adrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 23/05/2005 12:51:
Cool! You weren't one of the Desert Vikings or Lunar Trolls, were you? They were a couple of teams in a charity North African race
I've had three 8V variants now ... Bullet-proof and very well made :)
Okay, I'll bear that in mind. I do keep a very open mind when looking at cars and, as near impossible as it is, try not to compare with other cars I've driven or owned.
I've spent a few hours poking about websites and pictures and must confess to thinking the 25 GTi Turbo (II?) is the one for me, although I did think I was going for that one simply because it's the fastest. It's the CX experience that I'm after, so yeah, the 22 carb sound interesting but are they daily driver CXs? The Prestige certainly sound like a right boat ... 9" longer in the rear doors? Heck, SAAB only managed about 10cm extra for their "long CD" model 900s. 9" is ... Well, 9" :) Does that constitute a "limousine" in the Citroën sense of the word?
Like this: Are these the cloth seats? Right, okay, GTi Turbo or Prestige. The list is narrowing. I think I was erring towards the top end of the range anyway.
That said, if there was a lower spec model that was definitely the one to get then I could always look to swap interiors at a later date. Once you actually own a car, it's amazing how all the ifs and buts make sense. Until you do, it's often very confusing.
From the SAAB side of things, everyone always says, go for the fast Aero/SPG/T16S or better still, the kitted Carlsson model, but I've always owned the lower spec 8V models. Okay, my current one is an "Aero" look-alike, but genuine SAAB, at least :)
The "CX experience" ... That's it. That's what I'm after. Autos are not generally well thought of in the SAAB C900 arena either. Those that own them do like them though, but I know what you're saying.
Does the Prestige *only* come as an auto? You mention a turbo variant, but very rare to get RHD. Would that one would be a manual gearbox?
Well, I'd prefer petrol. I'm not sure why, but I had it in my head that all the turbo models were diesel. As I said, the model and variant matrix looked like a mass of spaghetti to the outsider. Petrol it is, then. Does the Prestige come in a diesel variant? I'm still with an open mind at this stage.
The 22 sounds reasonable, but a lightly tuned 25 Turbo would be quite a beast, would it not? What about the gearboxes (the bane of the SAAB tuner) ... How do they hold up to a good dose of torque?
Okay.
Okay. What made it "special"?
I know all about that from various rust bucket SAABs.
Did I read somewhere that Volvo were involved in the 25 engine?
Noted. Thanks.
It should be green, with no hint of red or brown, right? How would I check? The top-up reservoir, maybe? I've heard about blood-like trails of fluid leaking from sagging Citroëns. What does proper maintenance mean? Should be fluid be changed on a regular basis, or do the pipes need refreshing. Is an overhaul expensive?
My current SAAB C900 is an absolute boneshaker ... In a good way :) I must confess, what attracts me to these cars is the suspension. I spend most of my daily travelling in inner city areas where speed bumps are everywhere. Dragging my lowered C900 over speed bumps is no fun, especially when slightly too fast unhooks the exhaust ... AGAIN!!! Grrr! The CX does have the "pump up" suspension, right? Can they also do the three wheel trick?
Whoa! Definitely noted!!! Thanks for the reply. I'm much more clear about a lot of things.
... Some more questions ...
Service intervals? How many miles between minor services, generally? Do the turbo models need special attention, like more frequent oil changes?
I've seen some pictures with the single spoke steering wheel and others with a split single spoke (kind of like two narrower spokes side by side). I want the single spoke.
When did these change? Which interiors fit with which model variant?
Twin round headlamps. What's the deal with these? Were they fitted to a particular model, or are they an accessory/extra? I fancy it gives the car a slight look of the DS. What is the general opinion of those headlamps?
Paul Halliday ( snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :
Sven is/was an '88 slope-nose 900i 2-dr. My mother had an '86 900i 5-dr while I was learning to drive, and my brother's got a '92 900S 16v 5-dr currently.
Probably the best "compromise"/"balance", IMHO.
And some extra headroom. They're *big*...
The Euro markets got a version badged as the "Limousine", but that was a lower-spec diesel version of the Prestige. We didn't get it.
That's a GTi Turbo - the red seam piping gives it away over a GTi Auto which would have matching piping.
Prestige leather's slightly different, with more of a "box-quilt" pattern.
Yep. VERY very nice. Same material as BX GTi - I have a set of those in a
2cv van at the mo...
You'll find leather in a GTi Auto, too - and it's easy enough to retro-fit to a 22.
To a certain extent, find a good condition car, then worry about precise spec.
Don't get me wrong, the CX auto is a *nice* car, but it's a bit low-geared for low-altitude motorway flight... It'll sit happily at all legal and "usual" motorway velocities, though the revs are a bit high over about 90mph.
Compared to an 8v 900i, though, a 20 would be similar/slightly quicker. Hell, I saw an indicated 130mph out of my old s1 20...
Unless it's a turbo. The autobox was only put on the 25ie, and for UK/s2/saloon, that engine was autobox-only.
They built 5...
Yes.
Not RHD.
Bomb-proof. There's a guy on the CX list with 400bhp from a turbo - 170mph through the lower-ratio diesel gearbox. No probs.
The sales spiel... Basically it was a late-GTi Auto spec but with 22 engine. Slightly nicer trim, electric mirrors etc.
Oh, no, you don't... A bad CX will teach you *SO* much more about rot...
The 20/22 is a Douvrin lump - joint venture with Peugeot/Renault/Volvo/Citroen. I don't think Volvo ever used that, same as Citroen never used the Douvrin v6 that appeared in the 260/760, R25, Pug
505.
Bright vivid emerald.
Yep. Pop the top off and stick a finger in. Be careful not to leave the finger behind because of the sharp edges... To check the level, stick the car on full high before reading the float. To see the colour, drop it to full flat - there'll be more in the reservoir.
ONLY USE LHM. Brake fluid WILL kill the hydraulics QUICKLY.
Rotten pipes or, for more minor trails, a leak on a plastic/rubber low- pressure return.
Yep. If the old fluid's very black, it's worth flushing through (an extra change with special cleaning fluid left in for 1500 miles). Change it every year or two. Spheres usually last three-four years, and are about £20 each
- six fitted. The brake accumulator is usually neglected, but is perhaps the most safety-critical.
Most will have been replaced with cupro-nickel by now.
It should never be needed.
We left Sven's *entire* exhaust (from the end of the downpipe) somewhere in Mauritania, despite spring assisters and welded skid plates. The sump guard also failed to stop a serious gearbox oil leak developing...
But of course... (I've never tried the three-wheel trick, but it certainly should, although you may grind the disk cover down a bit)
6,000 miles.
No.
s1 (stainless bumper) dash, pre-85 (actually, that's 77-82, note the golf- ball ashtray). Note the rotating-drum dials. Freaky & gorgeous.
s2 (plastic bumper) dash.
Personal opinion? Vile. Aftermarket accessory. Hideous. On a par with the "plant-pot shelf" rear window sunvisors.
in article Xns965FA89CFDC8Fadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 23/05/2005 16:34:
I remember Sven! I might even have offered advice when you posted on alt.autos.saab ...
But ... Carburettors ... Daily driver?
One thing I can say about the SAAB reliability is that it will fire up first time, every time in sub-zero or summer temperatures. While we're on the subject, how does the CX fire up? "Click ... Boom" or "Click .. Cough Cough Cough .. Boom"?
Ooooh! I'll keep that model in mind for a second CX, if I get that far :) Seats Well, black leather with piping is the style I like ... Looks like the GTi is winning ...
Okay. Noted. Maybe keep that option for the second Prestige model (see above) :)
I pegged my "Inga" 1985 8V 900i ... The slightly higher ride height on the injection only models made it a little unstable at speed. She was a little terror, though and gave my wife's VW Scirocco GT II something to chase around the twisties. I really miss that car ... Very simple and unbreakable.
Gosh! Stealthy ... More tuneable than I thought.
Can anyone enlighten me as to the engine specifics of the turbo models? What turbo did they run? What boost? Are they intercooled? How is the turbo "tuned" - is it a manual wastegate tweak, or is is electronically controlled? If so, how? SAABs of that era had the legendary "APC System", which is essentially a primitive turbo timer, tuner and knock sensor. Very effective, nevertheless!
... I think my mind has been made up, unless, of course I happen across a good 22 first ...
Sounds like the old "run-out model" trick.
Easy. Thanks.
Doesn't sound too bad at all.
A sump guard is on the list for my C900.
Good.
Better. My C900 T8 needs oil changes about every 3500 miles, or the temperature starts to creep.
Yeah, they're quite something ... I fear I'd be watching them more than the road though!
Yummy! It's like a spacecraft :) Fantastic interior.
Series 1 ... Series 2 ... Around MY 1985 ... Ploink! The penny has dropped now :)
Is there a series 1/2 distinction between the sloping rear wheel arches and the straight wheel arches?
I think they're kind of okay, buy hey, I'm a newbie :)
I've seen pictures of louvres now and a sunroof wind deflector which is very SAAB 900. I'd feel quite at home with those accessories! What other external accessories were on offer?
I've been reading about the clever power steering; light for when parking and stiffens up at speed. Nice! What other quirks are there? Do the headlamps follow the steering in the CX? Also, what kind of comfort extras are on offer? Aircon? Climate control? Memory seats? Can the steering wheel be moved to suit the driver?
Paul Halliday ( snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :
If you did, then it's good to be able to return the favour now...
Why not?
It's a long while since I had the 20, but no probs there, from what I recall. Hell, it was on *points*...
You Do Not Want To Know What He's Spent On It.
It's complex. There's a replacement modified ECU, no longer available, together with a pile of other bits including a Sierra Cos clutch, IIRC. If you want that, look for a car that's already been modified. The magic word is Maikonics.
It's not. And it is very well worth it. The brake acc's a PITA, though, hence the neglect - and, of course, it doesn't get easier if ignored...
It IS a spacecraft...
Yup. For a daily car, s2. No question.
Yep. But, believe it or not, the only metalwork change is the front wings are slightly shorter at the lower front. It's amazing what a tiny nip'n'tuck can do.
There's the "look'n'lock" zero-travel brake pedal feeding 2,500psi of hydraulic pressure to the four-pot front calipers...
No direct mechanical linkage between steering and wheels in normal use, and 2,500psi of pressure holding the wheels straight ahead, yet finger- light steering.
Unfortunately not.
Option.
Standard on all s2.
Not even electric.
No.
Later GTi and Turbo will have electric heated mirrors (as used by Lotus/TVR), earlier cars might have manual internal adjustment. Turbo will have one-touch driver's door window. Hell, that's all frippery - the important bit is that it's a CX. Nothing else like it. Try one.
But try one *properly*...
They always used to say that if you drive one for five minutes, you'll never want to drive another - but drive one for five hours, and you'll never want to drive anything else.
in article Xns965FB6720D7FFadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 23/05/2005 17:56:
Yeah, thanks ... Understanding the CX is less of a muddle now. After a quick google, I think I might only have promised to cheer for you :)
As I said, I've an open mind ...
In the SAAB world, we've reverse engineered the APC system and as a community are in the position to actually improve the system (for performance), while retaining the anti-knock and boost control features. If the CX ECU is no longer available, are there any sites that people know of that dig into the silicon to see how it works/how to tweak it?
I'd still like to know about the turbo, intercooler, flow rate, boost levels, etc ... Getting serious now :)
I've been looking about for some engine bay pictures, but come up with only a handful of rather small and undetailed pictures. I'll keep scouring.
I'd probably be over-zealous about the condition of that system.
Series 1/2 Differences Thanks a million. It's quite clear to me now.
Oh yes. I've heard about this ... Can you explain?
I think this might be one of those "sit in the driver's seat" experiences. Options
The thing about acquired tastes is that you need to set off with the intention of acquiring the taste ...
How did you take to the C900 driving position, BTW? The seat position is one of those that you either fit it, or you don't.
I think I've enough pointers to test out a number of quirks on a short test drive. I actually have a feeling I might know someone who knows someone with a CX you know ... I'll sound him out when I next see him. That'd be ideal for getting a good test drive, rather than a series of quick drives.
Thanks a million Adrian. I'd still like to hear the opinions of others ... Anyone else?
Paul Halliday ( snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :
The brake valve doesn't *generate* pressure, it just passes the system pressure through to the brake circuit - so there's no real travel on the pedal, it's pressure-sensitive. Very unusual feel at first, but you quickly get used to it.
The suspension and brakes, together with the pump, control block, accumulator are exactly the same in principle to the DS (GS, SM, BX, Xant, XM) - have a look at
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It seemed to fit just fine. It's the complete opposite of the CX - very upright, while the CX is very laid back.
in article Xns965F82C4CE975adrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 23/05/2005 12:51:
I really like this one:
Are those spoilers a S1 thing only, or do you also find them on S2 models?
I can't believe how vast the Prestige models are:
Awesome! Rather than climbing in, you can practically walk into this car.
Well ... Now I have a problem. I prefer the outside style of the S1 GTi Turbo, but the interior of the S2. Ignoring the GTi for a minute (which I think is my favourite, all things considered), the CX22 TRS ... What carburettor did it use? Was it a single or twin-carb setup?
in article Xns965FB6720D7FFadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 23/05/2005 17:56:
This might seem anathema to the CX owner, but is it possible to retro-fit the S2 interior to the S1? Possibly more easy, is it possible to strip the bumpers, side stripes and rear spats off an S2 to fit the older S1 exterior?
Oh, inside the CX S2, the head unit is between the seats ... What is the second box in this picture?
Finally, he says :), on some CXs there is a hump on the bonnet, like this:
What's that for? In the engine bay, it seems to go to some sort of air intake - is it for the engine, or the cabin air vent? Is it part of a comfort option (like aircon) ... I suppose what I'm asking is does the vent in itself tell me anything about the spec of the car?
Paul Halliday ( snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :
You'd have to swap the front wings, but otherwise, yep, I think it'd be fairly straightforward.
Looks like a graphic equaliser. Cor, remember them? There's normally a storage bin there -Standard DIN size, so can be used for an amp or second head unit or CD-player or whatever.
All of 'em.
Yep, the cabin air intake is just beneath there - the "heater tower".
No.
If it's got a letter "T" stuck on the front, it's a GTi Turbo or Prestige Turbo...
Oh, yes - and if you're looking straight at it from the driver's seat, it's a RHD car - the main reason that sitting in the LH front seat of a CX just doesn't "feel right" to me...
in article Xns966195889F476adrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 25/05/2005 14:41:
Worth bearing in mind, then. For me, anyway :)
... not much use for a DIN slot coin and cup holder :)
The C900 has two DIN slots, also. The top one usually holds the head unit and the lower one is a storage slot. In mine, I have gauges in the top one and the head unit in the lower one in front of the gear stick.
I can think of all manner of things to use a spare DIN slot for. Cool!
Really? I'm sure I've seen a whole stack of pictures that didn't have a hump. I suppose it might have been the angle.
It's half-begging for an external boost gauge to sit on top of it ... I'll get my coat :)
Thanks again, Adrian. I think I'm pretty clued up about it all now. Just need to find some actual cars to go and look at and drive. I see there's the Yorkshire Classic Car Show coming up at the end of the month. I think I'll bob along to that to see what I can see.
in article Xns9661D4BCAAF7Fadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170, Adrian at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 25/05/2005 20:54:
Oh *rse! Well, lets hope there's something at Ripley Castle.
It was actually some pictures a friend sent me of a stunning DS at a classic car show down in Suffolk a month or so ago that got me onto Citroëns again. I'd love a DS, but need more space and time to keep one. That got me thinking about a "practical classic" like the CX.
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