Most Unworthy Successor...

Wouldn't argue too much.

The Fiat 131 was a nice enough boring saloon, but all the good points were those taken directly from the 124. Sadly the build quality was too. The 124 coupe and spider were worth preserving, but few felt the urge to even buy the 131 Sport.

Why not ? I'd be hard pressed to really identify the differences (front suspension is slightly improved).

Alfas have been a long downhill spiral since whenever. Sud -> 33 is probably the worst. OTOH, they have fixed their rotting.

Lancias became so progressively worse that they've now disappeared almost entirely.

-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, Andy Dingley decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

I had one of them. TUT 131X. Nice car, like a civilised RS2000 Mk2 Escort. With more rust.

First mass produced car to use Pirelli P6s, and considered better than the Mk2 RS by CAR magazine in it's day. Praise indeed.

Hopefully Alfa will never sink to the depths of the 33 again, I'd rather they stopped making Alfas altogether than do that.

Shame really, the Delta HPE is a nice car, as were the last of the Themas. I'd happily own a Thema Estate, in fact, when I get round to living in Europe again, I might just do that. The 2 door Kappa is a weird beastie though.

Is it hated? I had one for some time - bought it off a workmate for 20 quid, and once I'd fixed the rear suspension and clutch it was ok - although too heavy to have decent acceleration.

But neither worked particularly well - otherwise they'd be in use today. The P6 doesn't handle anything like as well as an SD1, and the 'corkscrew' cornering on even a slightly uneven surface could make passengers sick.

They're nowhere near as bad as you're making out. Especially in 16v form. The series III cars from late 1990 onwards were very capable, and didn't rust.

Or chargeing over the speedbumps at 40 and watching a Volvo nearly KO-ing its passengers trying to follow!

Stan Barr ( snipped-for-privacy@dial.pipex.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

A few years back, when I was using a bright orange Mehari as my daily transport, there was a letter published in the local paper complaining about my speedbump technique....

In article , ANDREW ROBERT BREEN writes

Ah, but a Renault 4 would lose both of them ;-) (fond memories of thrashing a Porsche 911 in the wet on the B339)

snip

The unlike the Landcrab the Princess/Ambassador had truly awful build quality apart from general quality and paint problems the petrol tanks had a life expectancy of 2 years, likewise the rear suspension mountings a part that had already given a lot trouble on lighter Allegro used to fall apart. At one point about 3 years after launch so many cars had these mounting fail that one stage the parts became unobtainable from Unipart and BLMC dealers were drilling and bolting the mountings solid to keep cars on the road -- I believe this was an official BL sanctioned bodge. And thats before we get to the awful 2200 engine and gearbox.

The mk4 was truly awful but the 6 cylinder Mk3 was reliable the steering and handling was poor compared to the PA and PB Veolux/Crestas it sold against. In the late 60s the MK4 Zodiac and PC Cresta/Viscount were so unpopular with the private hire taxi trade that there was a scrable to buy good Humber Hawks that lasted well into the 70s when the MK3 Cortina and V4 Consul filled the gap.

Chrysler 180 and Humber Hawk

Much as I am no great fan of the SD1 it did handle better than the P6. The P6 felt decidely odd to anyone driving one for the first time. The rear axle isn't a true de Dion and the use of the drive shafts for tranverse location introduces odd effects, while at the front end steering was mushy even on low mileage cars -- with time you got used to it but it wasn't user friendly. The SD1 basically took the standard reps' car suspension layout and applied all the best practice tricks for good rear axle location , but the heavy live axle always limited the car. The use of a de Dion layout with proper cv joints and a transverse SD1 style Watts' linkage would have greatly improved both the P6 and the SD1.

2CVs..

The 2CV had a remarkable ability to keep its tyres on the road - think I only really upset it once, when some corrugations in the road drove the front suspension into resonance on approach to a corner. And it still got me out of that predicament. Add to that quality of chassis the gearchange (fastest I've ever come across) and that phenomenal little engine (which would rev forever and a day) - for me the 2CV fufilled most of the criteria of a *really good car*, not least the one that if you own one you know you're having more fun that almost anyone else on the road and you're paying peanuts to have it :)

I've got a great fondness for the R4, particularly in the big-engine GTL form. Never owned one myself, but a girlfriend had one so I got to play with it from time to time. A *nice* car, though the engine was a bit agricultural compared to the flat twin in the tin snail.

Actually, the 4 is one of the new cars we've talked about here which has a worthy successor - the Renault Kangoo is very much a modern

4 and - if I were in the markt for a new or newish car - would be one of the few things I'd actually want to own (precisely because it's a modern take on the 4).

And while on the subject of Renaults - saw an early 5 (with the dashboard gearchange) this morning. Not seen one that old for a while, and it's amazing how good the shape still looks. When was the 5 designed? 1974 or so?

The 309 was originally designed as a Simca/Talbot Horizon replacement - then hastily "peugeotized".

Of course in this context one has to mention that strange french "cuckoo in the nest" the Renault-14, which though a Renault used the slanted-over-at-a- crazy-angle Peugeot 104-style engine! What *were* they thinking?

Yep I'll buy in to that. Ive always had rather a liking for the big Humbers though Ive never owned one. Wonder what they are like...I like big old cars with wood n leather and the super snipe straight 6 looks interesting.. What's in the Imperial? The 180 and 2 liter is a known abomination. How imaginative to blow up an avenger 20% on a photocopier and then actually build it..

Jonners.

Or the Fiat 132 [which was the spiritual successor to the Fiat 125]. The 125 was a tolerable small-family car (specially in 5-speed guise] - the 132 an example of 'grey goo' at its best. Then with a stroke of marketing genius, FIAT renamed it as the "Argenta", a move just guaranteed to win UK sales in the post- Falklands early-1980s. Smart move - almost as smart as Lancia branding their small-family car the "Dedra".

Does that mean that the Tagora is in fact /better/ than the car it replaced?

I want a 180 even more, in that case.

Richard

Imperial is the same 3-litre straight six with twin carbs as in the Snipe. A rather quaint engine which drinks fuel! Supposedly they did manual/overdrive versions but I suspect they were all automatics. Shame that Humber never put into production the experimental version that had a US Chrysler V8 under the hood. Apparently the development mule regularly blew away Police Mk.2 Jaguars on the Coventry bypass.