# TB vs TB Spacer?

Page 3 of 6
• posted on July 14, 2005, 10:18 pm

Absolutely. This is easily demonstrated at home. Fill a glass with water, about 3/4 full. Put it on a scale. Now add an ice cube. The ice cube is floating in the water (because it is slightly less dense than the water, just like a balloon is less dense than the air around it). The scale shows the added weight of the ice cube.
Most reasonable people understand this concept, almost intuitively. Others claim selective application of the laws of gravity.
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 22, 2005, 7:43 pm
Do you recall anything that happened BEFORE slipping and hitting your head while in the shower yesterday morning? "Deega-Voo, I will 'Splain it to you." If you know what I mean Vern.

Joe Brophy CountryTech Computer email: snipped-for-privacy@spiretech.com
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 2:34 am

Steam isn't "gravitationally bound to the earth" either, but water definitly weighs something, and sticks pretty damn close to the earths surface, if not laying directly on it. I bet a vessel full of liquid helium drops like a rock.

What part of "lighter than" don't you get? Ooops, sorry, apparently all of it.
--
Max

Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 3:51 am

gravitationally
Really, got proof?

earths surface, if not

Yep, I do believe that I mentioned that as well but we are not talking about liquid helium and if you are, please point out a few pools of it that I can check out.

I do get it, what about you? Since we are surrounded by air, if something is lighter than air, then it has no downward force and therefore, no weight. This is the difference between weight and mass Maxi, mass is what it is but weight can be infinitely variable. Hell, the farther away you get from the planet, and depending on the object at hand, the weight could first increase and then decrease to the point of being zero as you get beyond the gravitational pull of the planet.
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If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 4:11 am
TBone wrote:

TBone, where you are going wrong is your belief that the amount something weighs is its relation to the weight of air.
How far away does one have to get from earth to be effectively weightless? Space Shuttle flies at about 120 miles or so up. That far enough?
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 4:46 am

something
weight.
but
the
increase
Because Miles, it is. Weight is a relative force and like any force, it can be canceled out by other forces and / or used up performing some action. In the case of lighter than air craft, it's weight is being used up displacing the air in the lower atmosphere so it's weight is zero and because of that, it floats.

Do you really think that the pull of the earths gravity goes on forever? Well actually it does but not to any statistical significance and if you think that the shuttle weighs the same 120 miles out that it does sitting on the launch pad, I have some beach front property not too far from your house that I think you might be interested in :-)
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If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 1:29 pm
TBone wrote:

No Tom. Take a bottle and pull a vacuum on it. Place the bottle inside a vacuum chamber on top of a scale and weigh it. Now fill the bottle with helium and while still in the vacuum chamber weigh it again. It now weighs more...hmm...helium has weight!
Weight is not definded as a relation to the weight of air. You are WRONG! But VERY funny that you define it this way!!

Nope, it's slightly less computed as a ratio from the distance to the center of the earth. We are about 4,000 miles from the center. The shuttle is about 4,120 miles from the center. Now Tom, can you explain to us all why astronauts float around in the shuttle? Is it because gravity is so weak at 120 miles up?
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 2:10 pm

can
LOL, you just don't understand what weight is, do you? Yes, in a complete vacuum where there are no other forces acting on the helium, gravity will cause it to apply a downward force (weight), as minimal as it is. But in reality, not only does it not apply a downward force (weightless), it actually has lift so while it has a atomic weight (as everything with a mass does) it has no weight on this planet under normal conditions and is so weightless as to not even be able to be held in the atmosphere by this planets gravitational force. So while it has both mass and from that atomic weight, if you can't get a reading on a scale under normal conditions, then it has no downward force and no weight. You really need to stop confusing weight and mass or weight and atomic weight.

Weight is a downward force under whatever conditions exist. Since this planet is not currently in a vacuum, lighter than air gasses have no weight on the earths surface. If a scale cannot measure it, then it simply has no significant weight.

sitting on

Nope, it is because the shuttle is in orbit and basically in a constant free-fall. The constant change in direction cancels out the force of gravity so the shuttle and its contents have no weight. Do they have mass, of course they do, that doesn't change but since mass is not weight ....
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 15, 2005, 2:44 am
TBone wrote:

LOL, Ya, I and most others here do. You don't. You think weight is strictly a relation to air.

Um Tom, I work in this very exact field. I write software for the aerospace industry for measuring mass and force. To compute an items known mass to force (weight) you figure in the local gravity as well as local bouyancy for the environment the object is placed in be it air, water or whatever.
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 17, 2005, 3:12 am

Uh, no. I said that weight is a downward force and if the air eliminates that force, then it doesn't have any weight.

And exactly what part does buoyancy have in your equation? Think about it.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 12:53 pm

nope
but at that orbital distance, the vehicle is effectively 'falling' toward earth in a curve (ellipse) that never reaches earth; or you could say that centrifugal force balances gravity
either way, the shuttle and everything in it is effectively WEIGHTLESS
it is, however, not MASSLESS as Bone-Head would have us believe
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 1:45 pm

Please show me exactly where I said that the mass EVER changes. Oh, that's right, you cant! Maybe someday you will figure out that very complex equation. LOL
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 3:03 pm

that's
right here:
" Because weight is a measurment of a force, not a volume or mass."
since weight = mass x acceleration, the only way you can have 'no weight' is for either mass OR acceleration OR both to equal zero
since you were talking about helium 'having no weight', we see that you are comparing it to 'other things' which 'have weight', therefore, acceleration (gravity) is still present
therefore, acceleration does NOT equal zero, so for 'mass x acceleration ' to equal zero, mass must be zero
now, I know this is heavy math/logic for somebody that doesn't understand percentages, but read it REAL slow, and maybe it will sink in
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 4:26 pm

Which is correct.

is
Now, please read what you wrote, mass OR acceleration. We will get back to this later.

are
acceleration
Hahahahahahaha, you really are an idiot. Acceleration is more than just gravity. Acceleration is a net force where in a perfect world gravity would be it but in reality, gravity is only a part of it. If other forces acting on the mass are opposed to the force of gravity, g gets smaller and if they are greater than the force of gravity in the opposite vector or direction, g becomes zero or even funnier, a negative number which would give our object a negative weight such as "lighter than air". Now the problem is that the density of air at ground level and pretty much through our entire atmosphere is more dense than helium which causes it to place a force on the helium greater than the force of gravity and in the opposite direction. Remember "g" of the equation. If you now add these forces at the point of measure to get the actual value of "g", you will get a number that is less than zero for this particular gas which when plugged into your equation, will give a weight of less than zero as well, hence, the gas floats away.

I guess that you really are this dumb or at least as mathematically/logically challenged as you accuse me of being. But to make this even simple enough for you to understand, if you put your quantity of helium or any other substance on a scale under normal conditions, and get no reading, then it has no downward force or no weight, PERIOD.

LOL, is this the best that you can do? I never claimed to be a mathematician and it was a simple mistake, one that many in here also made. You OTOH, claim to be a transmission expert but don't understand either the production of torque or how a TC operates. The sad thing is that a TC is a very simple device and if you don't understand its operation, I doubt that you have a clue on how the transmission itself works.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 8:50 pm

weight'
to
would
when talking 'weight', gravity = acceleration
stop trying to spin

they
g
object
atmosphere
to
'
make
once more, Braniac:
weigh a container that is drawn down to a 'hard' vacuum inside
then weigh it when it is filled with helium

understand
I didn't see anyone other than yourself trying for three weeks to deny that 3% / 2% = 150%
'the rest' got it fairly quickly, you kept calling it 'fuzzy math'
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 4:42 am

Yup. You claimed that a gas that is "lighter than air" has no weight. Thus steam, which is lighter than air, as proven by its rising through the air from what ever object produces it, must also weigh nothing. Since steam is water, water must have no weight, since it can rise above the air. At least, according to your theory.......Unless you are wrong?
--
Max

Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 4:56 am

least,
Well, that might be true if steam always rises but that doesn't always happen and even when it does, it usually doesn't go very high so it must be gravitationally bound to the earth after all, just like the water it came from. But now that you mention it, water vapor has mass but also has no measurable weight since it is floating throughout most of the atmosphere. Even lighter than air aircraft do not go up forever. Once they get to a height where the air density is close to that in the aircrafts lift envelope, that is as high as it goes but until it begins to descend, it has no measurable weight.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 5:28 am

Ok, so if water has no weight, how exactly is it that it supports a 120,000 ton aircraft carrier?
You might look up the theory/definition of bouyancy. WAIT..... don't do that, you'll only add to your own confusion.
--
Max

Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and
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<%-name%>
• posted on July 14, 2005, 5:19 pm

came
atmosphere.
120,000
I don't recall water vapor supporting any type of ship, never mind an aircraft carrier. If it could, there would be no reason for dry-dock. Now water itself is a liquid while vapor is a gas, you do know that, right????

I know what it means, do you?
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

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<%-name%>
• posted on July 15, 2005, 3:32 am

Yeah, but you seem confused by it. See, you've just said that water vapor (steam) has weight because it water. Yet that water vapor WILL rise through the air, particularly if its heated and is steam. Its the same with helium, which you seem to think acts totally differently as a gas than water does as a gas. If water vapor (gaseous water) has weight, then so does gaseous helium.
I've simply taken your theory about helium gas and applied it to another element(s) as a gas, and shown how your theory doesn't work.
--
Max

Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and