Simply not true. The difference in interior material quality, design,
and fit and finish between my '02 VW GTI and my '05 Impala is
significant. The GTI had split folding rear seats. The Impala does
not. (this is important to me, as the Impala is a company provided
vehicle, and I might occasionally have a need to transport large pieces
of equipment as part of my job...) The GTI had heated leather seats,
heated mirrors, a rear wiper/washer, and a sunroof. The Impala does
not. The GTI handled reasonably well and had awesome acceleration.
The Impala does not. In fact, the only things the Impala has that the
GTI did not are rear doors, a big trunk, and a (crappy) automatic
Guess which car costs more...
This is very true, but the reputation of American (and to be fair, VW)
dealerships is crappy service and a consumer-unfriendly attitude.
Compare and contrast with the kissing your ass gets at an Infiniti or
Lexus dealership, of course those cars have great reputations, people
forget about the little problems they've had with them because the
dealer gave them a loaner car and fixed the issue for free, with no
hassles, and apologizing the whole time.
Sure. But if you were involved with fleet service, you probably only
dealt with dealers for warranty work, and even the crappy ones didn't
give you the fecal matter that they would give to Joe Average, because
they wanted you to buy more cars from them. The average guy, they know
he's not buying anything any time soon, he just bought a new car.
and reliability, performance, handling, and dealer service...
especially dealer service...
Sorry... did you seriously lump all American dealerships, such as ford, pontiac,
mercury, chevy, dodge, plymouth (defunct), chrysler, etc. and compare them
faced to Lexus and Infiniti??
Just not a realistic comparison.
Well, it isn't a realistic comparison but Ford, Pontiac, Mercury, etc, would
LIKE you to believe their dealerships will treat you that special. Remember
the much-ballyhooed Chrysler 5-Star dealership program? I don't know if
that program's still going but the nearest Chrysler dealer was a 5-Star
dealer and they were a bunch of morons who'd cut their own throats if it
would help them screw the customer. I went in to look a used car and the
salesman made me an offer that was frankly illegal.
Service at the Toyota dealer I use isn't exactly cheap but they do treat you
like visiting royalty whenn you show up with your Toyota. And they offer
good, solid low prices with no switcheroos, no add-ons and no shenanigans.
I just researched that, and it was quite suprising. Lincoln, Caddy, Saturn
and then Lexus. Toyota was WELL below average, while honda and chevy are
in a basic tie. Ford was just slightly below the average ranking.
of course, to be fair, the issue we were discussing was to compare the
chevy, fords, and dodges dealers of the world with the Lexus and infiniti
dealers of the world. simply put, a well run luxury dealership should
easily be able to provide better service to each customer.
Second, let's remember that the nationwide ranking of a brand of dealer has
nothing to do with how good the dealership in your area is. Ford is listed
slightly below average, but we have a ford dealership nearby which is
simply the best dealer of any brand I've ever been to. Dale Jarrett Ford
in indian trail... it's just that good.
There's a nearby chevy dealer that is probably the worst dealership i've
ever tried to deal with. rude, with no training for their salespeople.
In short, don't go by the rankings by jd power or similar... visit your
local dealer and make your own decision.
Exactly. I went to two different Nissan dealers, and they were polar
opposites. One would have done almost anything to get me to buy a
car, while the other insulted me because I wasn't interested in a
Guess which I bought a car from?
You are correct any 'list' by itself is subjective, it is the ONE that
effects you that is important. The fact is everything on the 'list' could
be bad, or good, the list would simply show which were worse, or better the
case may be, hardly an indictor of what might effect you.
Many will point to a their brand of vehicle as a 'better' than another,
when in fact ALL manufactures today are building vehicles that are of good
quality and reliable, but one will be 'listed' on the top and another must
be one the bottom. Whether the one you buy is one of the 2% that are bad,
or one the 98% that are good, in the chance you take when you drive it home
Why some are willing to pay a 20% to 30% premium to buy a particular brand
when the odds are they will get one of any manufactures 98%, is silly. ;)
You're absolutely correct on a good part of this. It's human nature, I
believe based on our competitive drive, and that's based on our fight-
or-flight response... but it' our nature to like lists to see and
compare where our choices fall. In many ways choosing 1 brand over
another for individual reasons, like reliability, may be statistically
irrevelant, but JD Power is never going to come out and say that "Well,
actually ALL cars are good now and you can pick what you want and feel
confidient!"..No, they have to cut and parce and piece together to come
up with a list.
Regardless, whether all manufacturers are building good quality and
reliable products, it is still not just a 'toss up'. What I mean is
that I think we will see much more where styling, interior design and
the quality of the 'environment' of the car will become increasing
Ford might make a great product, but if you hate the design or quality
of materials they use in the dash, seats, etc.... you might be happier
It may be a fallacy in many cases, but the perception is that Jap cars
are more reliable and of better quality. That helps a lot when you want
to sell your used Honda or Acura or Toyota.
Besides, lots of GM and Ford cars are uninspired and boring. On the contrary,
most European cars and some Japanese cars (Subarus, Infinitis, etc) are quite
The differences are far from miniscule. I have owned at one time or
another: Beetle, VW Bus, Golf, Escort, Buick, Chrysler Town & Country Wagon,
Geo Metro (3 cylinders & 1.0 liter-lots of fun around town), Chevy Prizm
(Corolla). There really were significant differences in the fit and finish
and in dealer treatment of the customer (me). The import dealer(s) was a
*whole* lot better at taking care of the customer that Detroit's *and that
is what is killing Detroit*! Granted that their quality has improved of
late but it is too little, too late. There are an awful lot on mistreated
and burned customers out there and they have very, very long memories. If
domestic car companies cannot get those folks into the showrooms (maybe with
100K bumper to bumper warranties, and some priceless word of mouth
advertising) they will be as dead as the dinosaurs that they, and they
alone, have made themselves.
Either you are not very old, or you have a very short memory. Having owned
import cars or dealt with family members that owned them in the 70's, 80's
and even 90's, I can promise you that there were (and still are), wretched
import car dealers and crappy import cars. My list of problematic import
cars include a 1975 Datsun 280Z (clutch, EFI), 1980 Honda Accord (rust),
1983 Toyota Cressida (a wretched piece of junk with so many problem I can't
list them all), 1983 Mazda (AC, cooling system, trim), 1986 VW Jetta (fuel
pumps, transmission, CV joint boots, electricals), 1990 VW Passat (motor
mounts, interior and exterior trim, cam drive, electricals). When we owned
the Cressida, the local Toyota dealer was run like an extortion racket. Over
price the new cars, sell you unreliable crap, and then hold you hostage for
parts that cost two and three time the US equivalents. Things are a little
better in my area now, since there actually multiple Toyota and Honda
dealers, but they still treat you like they are doing you a favor by
agreeing to consider selling you one of their cars. And the service
departments are still run by extortionist. Maybe things are better over at
the Lexus and Acura dealerships, but how would I know? I don't trust the
opinion of anybody dumb enough to pay 25% more for a Toyota or Honda because
they have cool brand name. At least two people I know recently ditched their
unreliable Japanese cars and bought American. I have seen it go from people
not buying foreign cars because there Grandfather said they were crap, to
people not buying American cars for the same reason. During my lifetime, my
Father has only purchased one new car that was not a Ford. Of the 21 Fords
he bought over 50 years, only one was problematic (1957 Station Wagon - blew
the engine in 1964 at 85,000+ miles, he had the engine rebuilt and trade the
car). One other one was irritating (1979 Station Wagon - exhaust leak the
dealer couldn't fix, but there was no cost since car was totaled in an
accident before it was fixed). Of the other 19, I doubt he ever spent more
than $300 in repairs on any of them. I spent more on the Toyota every year I
owned it. So when people tell me how great Toyotas are, I just have to
wonder what they are comparing them to. Everything is much better now than
in 1972. I might very well buy a Toyota in the next few year, but it will be
because the particular product I buy offers the features I want at an
acceptable price - not because some Usenet expert claims US cars are junk
and Toyotas are great. I've been to the Toyota dealership and seen the
service bays filled with broken cars. I've seen my neighbors Camry lay down
a cloud of blue smoke every morning. I've seen a local farmer's broken and
rusted out hulk of a Tundra.
I was waiting for someone to bring up those dealers.... my parents had
such an experience with a honda dealer back in '81 or so as I recall. They
ended up leaving not buying anything at all. The Japanese import dealers
took the demand for the cars as a chance to treat people poorly.
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:57:57 -0600, firstname.lastname@example.org
(Brent P) wrote:
I've also seen a Ford dealer tell a woman to "be quiet and let the men
talk." We walked out damn fast, since she was buying the car for
herself. I was just the Go-With-Guy, and neither of us minded going
to another Ford dealer with a better reputation.
Oh, and that happened in the 2000s, not the 1950s.
In the 90's my (then) fiance and I had...
1. a ford dealer tell me that "I've decided on the car, and now she can
decide the color".
2. a vw dealer show us the trunk mounted cd changer and point out that
while I'm driving, she can fold down the rear seats and get into the trunk
to change my cd's.
We've never been back to either.
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:57:57 -0600, email@example.com
(Brent P) wrote:
And Ford and GM dealers just treat everyone like crap. So does
Toyota. Honda dealers can be very crappy too, especially for service.
So what do you do?
You go to a few, get your best price, then go to the one you chose to
buy from and tell him what you are willing to pay. Give him 5
minutes, then turn and walk out if he isn't in the mood to sell a car.
Everytime I buy a new car I do this, and the treatment I get is
irrelevant because I know I won't buy from anyone until I am ready,
and then I treat them just like they do everyone else. In the end,
everyone is happy. I get the vehicle for what I WANT TO PAY, and they
get to experience poor treatment. Oh wait, I forgot, they usually
want to be the one treating the customer bad.
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