you will pay more to top off your system with 12 than you would pay to convert it over to 134a. not only would it be cheaper, but the handy dandy conversion kit includes a form of "leak stopper" that works surprisingly well IF your leak is due to gasket failure. dont worry about the loss of efficiency. make sure that both your condensor and evaporator are clean and the actual difference at the vent temp should only vary a few degrees.
....otherwise flash it with r414b. i normally dont recommend flashing but in this case i will.
Mike, I agree completely. I was just passing on something that I saw in the past. I wasn't trying to insult you or your experience, just relaying and experience I had.
I don't condone propane as a viable replacement either, except for Snojob.
I wasn't condoning the use of it Nate, just telling what I saw in my A/C class back in 1987. Incidentally, neither was our instructor, but it was a very informative class. I did learn to mix R12 with R22 like in some of the old Volvo cars.
Really? Who aside from maybe one shop in a given location will service it? Totally defeats the purpose of using the cheaper refrigerant when the one service shop that can service it will no doubt rape you.
Really? R12 is no more than 20 bucks a can, 5 bucks or so at flea markets. Maybe I should send my conversion work to you since you work so cheap.
Yeah it works suprisingly well on everything else inside the system as well.
Repost of something I wrote a few days ago:
------------------ The only thing I would try a can of Refrigerant with leak sealer in is something that I know is on its last legs and will be taken to the junk yard within 2 years. (IOW if you want to risk never having a working a/c system again, have at it.) I dread working on cars with that sh** in it. I don't like hooking my service equipment up to even when I have special filters attached that strip it out. (I do charge more if I detect it) In my strong opinion all that crap does is gum things up and run the cost of real service and repair up.
A must read!
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Most shops will turn you down if they find sealant in the ac system.
And what is all of this going to cost him? From what I can tell you intend on him venting all of this stuff since I doubt he owns any recovery equipment...
understood. i wasnt criticizing you at all, just adding to the conversation.
trouble with 22 is the pressure required to get it above freezing. the higher pressures required overload compressors designed for 12. in what concentrations were you mixing it? i know its common in particular blends, i just dont like it.
to NC? quite possibly next month. i purchased a second home on wheels (
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raptor 3612) and start travelling around the middle or end of june. im not yet sure where im going, i just want to get away and travel some. whats going on?
not really the point in my response. i was simply making the point that there _are_ alternatives that arent "stupid" at all and in fact will offer better cooling than either while coming in much cheaper than 12. r414b is a beautiful refrigerant that i purchase for well below $200 for 30#. r416a (while not intended for use in automotive applications) is another one that works great. the only reason 134a is so common is because it became the standard before others existed and it too will be phased out.
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:01:12 -0400, Mike Romain wrote:
Magic Mike with the 3.31 power gears, lift and bigger tires and the
5speed with 4 usable gears and also recommands burning rubber in reverse to remove drive line bind in 4x4 drive.Also is finatical about beeing able to shift into 4x4 drive at high speeds (ego) and use 4lo a lot (because of his great power gears he needs to a lot) There is few here that preach more tripe than him. He shows you extreme lack of knowledge everytime he blows his cool. BTW, there are many big commercail coolers/chillers that use Propane for cooling and have for many years. The biggest reason they are down on it here is because Duponts lobbying. Isobutane or propane also weighs less and therefore takes less energy to cycle through system so compressor uses less energy and the coolant capured more heat per volume too so it is a win win. If Mike ever really learns to get his head out of his arse and learn a bit he could maybe be more viable. BTW, with a R134 charge as I said before it is a compromise at best as a R12 replacement because R134 has a higher average pressure and it rate of pressure increase in not linear as tempatures rises (it climbs quicker) placing more strain on old R12 systems and Mike likely does not know that R134 is toxic and quite deadly in consentration while R12. R12a and propane is not toxic in native state and the only way breathing it can harm you is if you breath it pure and there is no oxygen with it and to slowly expire from lack of oxygen. Burn R134 in a fire like a wreck and it is even more toxic yet. The AirForce did a study on this several years ago for combat damage ad determined that the average R134 system have enough R134 in it to "dose" a fairly tight passenger compartment with a dosage that is about 5 times the lethal level. Dupont is pretty quiet about all of this of course.
The more immediate problem is not a leak under the hood or in an accident but that of a slow leak in an enclosed area such as a garage when parked overnight or longer. Of course, the effects of breathing R134 from such a leak in such a place are also unpleasant, but at least your house will still be standing and the fire department won't be quite as troubled...
Isobutane and propane 'EXPLODE' in the presence of a spark or flame.
What part of that are you missing?
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
SNORT! Yeah, there is a reason it's illegal alright, Duponts patent ran out so anyone could make the stuff, that's why it was so cheap. So this scare got cooked up that Freon was destroying the planet and it got banned and replaced by another Dupont product with a fresh patent.
Around the time that patent runs out we'll see them start to ban 134a and require the use of yet another refrigerant.
I'm no fan of conspiracy theories but I believe this one.
The same might be said of the 13 oz propane torch bottles that nobody, including the fire department, worries about indoors. My lifetime sample size of a few dozen bottles has displayed a few slow-leakers. Or you just don't turn the torch off properly. One of those bottles, plus the spare in your toolbox, is about the same mass of propane to charge an auto air conditioner.
You might want to consider the limits of flammability for propane in air. It takes quite a stroke of luck to get the right proportion from a given leak rate or given volume of enclosure. The hazard would seem to be quite comparable to a gasoline fuel system leak.
Propane indeed has its hazards and should be respected, but being superstitious about it is imprudent.
Anhydrous ammonia has been used in residential refrigerators. Propane is a kitten compared to that stuff.
You know what, I have seen a whole bunch of blown campers from propane and have friend that lost parents from a propane bottle in the back seat leak, know folks that survived one with the top of the camper opened like a sardine can, deaf and burned, but alive, so the odds aren't 'that' bad.....
I'll bet if you Google hit it there would be lots too.
I think it's fair to say that Mike's interest in 4X4 lends toward recreational use while yours lends towards lawn mowing and snow plowing. Thus, your pontifications are noted and pointless.
And the building housing these systems move down the highway at
70 miles per hour?
Absolute and utter bullshit.
It's not win-win if it can not and HAS NOT been demonstrated as safe.
You'd sacrifice human flesh to avoid "strain" on an old condenser?
Everything is toxic. "dosis solo facit venenum", the dose makes the poison. Even water is toxic.
Yes, a rat will die after exposed for 4 hours at 500,000 ppm concentration. Wanna tell me where in the real world such conditions could possibly exist WRT an automobile?
Then there's the little matter that R-134 is used as a propellant in asthma inhalers. Hmmm... not even dangerous to someone who suffers from a chronic breathing problem.
R-12 toxicity is 750,000 ppm, so it looks like you're wrong again.
So, in a wreck, the leak would likely be inside the passenger compartment or external to the passenger compartment? R-134 is more likely to extinguish a fire than it is to contribute to it (unlike propane).
More bullshit. If the lethal level equals a 50% concentration (500,000 ppm) over 4 hours on a rodent, how does it become possible to achieve this "5 times" level on a passenger?
And all the other R-134 manufacturers?
Where are all the dead bodies? Why don't we read about this more frequently?
I've spent the better part of this work week replacing leaking AC evaporators, how come none of my customers mentioned any adverse symptoms other than 'no cold air?'
So, since you discount safety, why not Ether, or Sulphur Dioxide, or Methyl Chloride, or Methylene Chloride, or Ammonia, or Carbon Tet?? All have been used at one time or another as refrigerants.
Thank GOD there are people way smarter and with more common sense than you in charge.
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