Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon

I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it was a great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.

Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are ADDITIONAL to a base TJ. That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35, and the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The only real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not worth $5k. (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components, not what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)

Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer a bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot, and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is cooked..

over-sticker

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And that costs how much to import to the US? td

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DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!

All we have to worry about are the mosquitos, and they only get bad about 2 months a year. td

All the basic stuff, plus a 3"BDS with DT3000s, 33x12.5 MT/Rs on 15x8 AR767s (4"bs), JKS discos and barpin elims. The front bumper is a Rokman

Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,

"Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.

Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the dealers screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus. That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"

And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I think it sucks.

That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport actually) and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the tire package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you forget the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there are

That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having

Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead of any other package.

I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more than you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt to avoid costly options that you don't want.

It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".

You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you read what I had to say:

Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the collective, incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly could just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price marginally and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy, short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.

The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ. The cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear MTRs is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference between

....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay the ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is "hip" right now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think .....dare I say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!

See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's at both ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but stay with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best premium I should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have the metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the money DC could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to HOSE everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one, and we think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!

Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure forever before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense. DC ought to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as well. They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?

non-performance

The motorcycles don't really bother me a whole lot because most of them are too sissified to take their machines on unpaved roads, like everything in Silverton except Greene street. I have on occasion walked over there to look at the machines and talk to the owners. Some of them will actually talk to non-Harley owners about non-Harley topics, but most of them are too stuck up. ("Hey guys, I understand, I used to be a computer programmer too!")

It's a change from the Rubicon owners, but not much of one, eh?

As far as "Socialist-PC crowd" goes, you have these people all wrong. All they want is ripe fat tourists, fit for milking, and being from Durango you are just as good a plum as a fat insurance salesman motorcycle driver. The socialist act is just part of the show...

Earle

TW, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. The fox could have just as logically walked away saying, "Those grapes probably suck, anyway!"

To my knowledge, there is no definitive and quantitative measure of suckiness, so I have to ASSume that suckiness is a relative and subjective measurement. That being the case, the "illusion of suckiness" becomes the "reality of suckiness", as used in the expression: "Wow, that *really* sucks!" Therefore, if you believe something sucks, it does.

My one remaining question is, why is it that something that "really sucks" is no better or worse than something that "really blows"?

You're right. Actually, I've never said that the Rubi sucks. To the contrary, I think it's probably the most capable "out of the box" off road vehicle available to the general public.

There may not be much of a *cost* difference in the way of materials, labor to assemble, etc, but there is certainly a *value* difference. There is not much *cost* difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac, either, but they are priced considerably different due to actual and perceived *value*. If you don't believe me, go ahead and buy a 4:1 xfer case, d44s with 4.11s and lockers and try to sell your 2.72 xfer case and open d30 and d35. I guarantee you won't come close to covering your costs. That's because, even though they might be close to the same *cost*, they have less *value* on the open market. If the rubi package isn't worth the price to you, don't buy it. Simple. That's how market price is determined in an open market. If people don't buy something, it's usually because the perceived value is less than the asking price.

The same could be said for diamonds. They are inherently worthless, but they have a HUGE perceived value, along with an artificial value set forth and controlled by DeBeers and company.

The Rubic> There may not be much of a *cost* difference in the way of materials, labor

So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier, you are saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely different things.

And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I even got into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what you have to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread to go on and on.

As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only represent in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the upgrade AND they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or over the parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go, the point is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original parts, yet they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up. You will never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the upgrades yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most of us do not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage space needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.

collective,

youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this newsgroup that has contributed far more than "rubicons suck".

i swear, if it werent for people like jeff strickland who use supernews (and others like teranews, altopia.....the services where all the troublemakers seem to come from) i would filter out those services entirely. if i do a google on "gerald g. mcgeorge" will i find any history beyond your intial "rubicons suck" post?

Now you're catching on.

Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it right, but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!

Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is not only aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with the desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through with a truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands core values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are bound to be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would flop, and it clearly didn't.

Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what the team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can credit the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.

Try it and see. (You might want to try Jerry McGeorge)

Thanks Nathan!

McFly has been PLONKED so I don't get his posts but got part of this one in your response. I've owned a lot of cars and you just have to know how to buy them. I not only purchased my Rubi for $100 over, I ordered it in Sept. when they were screaming hot. Some people bend over for the the dealers I don't, and guess what? They all want my repeat business.

BTW, I th> youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this

That was an "assessment"?

We still think you're full of prunes re: the $100 over invoice statement. But, I won't ask you to prove it....you know what we're thinking!

troublemakers

If you paid $24,500, congratulations.