UK: Jeep Grand Cherokee

c2dmw did pass the time by typing:

You should get the FSM (Field Service Manual). It isn't cheep, but it will cover all the maintenance and repair procedures for the Jeep.

Most of that "60,000 mile service" is dedicated to generating revenue for the dealers mechanics.

While I'm not familiar with the 4.7, for the most part service amounts to changing the fluids, air filter, and relieving the customers wallet of all that excess weight.

It's a chain and will probably outlast the vehicle.

Here is a site you will find useful.

I got a quote 700 quid :( from the main dealer. Idealy I'd like to find a independent Jeep specialist for half the price.

No it's a belt and is showing signs of wear. So if it's not included that will probably be an extra few shillings :(

Try posting your question in uk.rec.cars.4x4 for some more local answers.

Ok.. I'm confused. The US 4.7 uses a chain to drive the overhead cams. It uses a belt to drive the alternator/AC Compressor/PS Pump/Fan.

Unless they changed something on UK sold Jeeps.

It's a chain like Doug wrote. Read the link from the page Doug provided:

God Bless America, ßill O|||||||Omailto: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com ^nospam^@hotmail.com wrote:>

Do yourself a favor and spend a few extra quid for somebody who knows the difference.

Hey hey hey, go easy on the dealer techs. You don't hesitate to bring us the things that you can't figure out, but you wanna crap on us when it's time to get some maintenance done. Can't have it both ways, Doug.

Jerry

Jerry Newton did pass the time by typing:

Actually I can, and while I have no problem with most dealerships some are simply out to screw the customer out of as much as they can. The hour costs are egregious for basic maintenance. At least double that of any decent local mechanic.

Let me put this in perspective. How much does the dealer charge to change the transfer case fluid in a 93 ZJ Quadratrack? They charge enough that I was able to buy a snap-on socket to fit the fill and drain plugs, the ATF fluid, a small plastic pump to reach up there, and still had money left over for beer.

The procedure? 1) take both plugs out and let case drain, 2) put lower plug back in and fill case till it comes out the top, 3) put top plug back in.

As for competency. I have experienced both ends of the spectrum, fortunately the poorest when the Jeep was still under warrantee. Two of my best experiences:

One was replacing the distributor. After the chief mechanic looked up the price for part and maintenance he called back and said it would be about $410.00, 195 for the part and 215 for service. In his words "Utter bullshit for such an easy job." I knew the NAPA part is only $80 and with the simple instructions he gave me vs. the FSM, it took under 20min to do the whole thing, even stopping to take pictures.

The other was when I was having problems with the ABS failing as the Jeep went over bumps. The mechanic looked, tested, looked, swapped parts, tested, looked, and literally an hour later talked to me about the problem and how it was "moving." We both worked on it and even swapped out the brains. Problem came and went. Finally the only thing it could be was gremlins. One of the other mechanics stopped by to look and mentioned that the way they designed that POS the rain drips right on the connector. "you should clean that out or it's gonna cause all sorts of problem." So we grabbed a can of contact cleaner, sprayed the connector, stuck my old ABS computer back in there, and the problem was gone.

Both of us muttered, "well, shit!" He explained about having to bill for time and I had no problem with that at all. Road salt had gotten into the connector and was screwing up the brains just enough that sensors would indicate faulty when they weren't. I chalked it up to an expensive lesson in cleaning the connectors first.

Long story short. I don't have a problem with any mechanic as long as they are ethical in dealing with customers.

SInce he can see that it has wear, you can pretty well bet it's the external serpentine accessory belt. Something like $15-$40 US available from after-market sources, 15 - 20 minute chore.

I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways. However, if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.

When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor rate, and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less money? You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on your specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the guy could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you to believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just isn't. Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that: put back together with as little cost as possible).

Couple this aftermarket part with the fact that the guy installing it is experimenting on your vehicle, learning as he goes. I know, I have been there. It is tough to work in small shops, because you are expected to be an expert on every year, make and model, and nobody is. Sometimes, you have to gamble with the customer's money because you don't have the skills or resources to make an accurate diagnosis.

When the commercials say that Mr. Goodwrench is factory-trained, that is what that means. We travel to regional training centers and are taught in a hands-on environment on very specific subject matters and vehicle systems. In my case, I am a GM tech. I work on all models of GM cars and trucks, but most specifically, I am a Cadillac guy. I have spent more hours training and studying GM powertrain than I can count. When you bring your car to me, and tell me that it makes a funny noise when you start it cold, or the steering wheel has a rattle in it, I know what is wrong with it before I even see your vehicle, because this is what I do all day every day. People think I am a genius because I go right to the source of their problem. I am no genius. I am simply doing what you pay me to do. You came to my dealership because you wanted the best guy to work on your car. I am giving that to customers, and they don't bitch much about the labor rate. Most of them know what they are paying for.

What does it cost to run a business? If you are a GM dealer, you pay tens of thousands per month for the franchise. In return for that, one of the things you have access to is a never-ending network of support personnel to help you solve a problem. I can speak directly to field engineers or technical assistance gurus. I can locate the specific part that I need for your car in seconds, no matter where it is in the world. I have GM management types that I can rely upon to make decisions about the best course of action for your car (should I put a crankshaft in this car, or should I replace the engine?). This franchise expense, of course, is in addition to the physical plant. Buildings, lifts, transmission jacks, engine stands, brake lathes, scan tools, and special tools specific to GM products cost a lot of money, too. Not to mention my personal expenditure of about $75,000 sitting in my toolbox, waiting to make me a living. People think that I must exaggerate the cost of tools, but I can assure you that this is no exaggeration. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for these things? It comes from the $70 or so that the dealership charges as an hourly labor rate, a portion of which is mine.

Sure, the distributor replacement was going to cost a tidy sum of cash, and you opted to go aftermarket, and do it yourself. Hey, more power to ya. Say that job pays the tech 1.0 hours of labor. That means that he does that job for the predetermined price of 1.0 hours of his pay. That is regardless of how much time it actually takes him. If it takes him 2.5 hours to get it done, he isn't likely to try to charge you for that, unless there were some strange circumstances. But look how cranked up you are about paying him an hour of labor, knowing that he will have it done in 20 minutes. The tech has to make his living across the board, not just fixing the things that nobody else could figure out. We need some no-brainer, easy work to mix in with the ass-kicking, intermittent transmission downshift while going downhill in the rain during a full moon on Tuesdays.

I guess I said what I wanted to say. Having done that, I hope that you continue to fix things yourself, or go to the local garage, because quite frankly, I really don't want you for a customer. When I am faced with charging a customer for a repair, I make a habit of looking at the service history to see what kind of customer he is. If he has only come to me for warranty repairs or things that Joe's Garage couldn't fix, I am gonna get every penny I have coming to me, and not a penny more. If he has been to my shop for every thing that goes wrong, and pays the bill without bitching, I am way more prone to throwing him a bone once in awhile. I don't know what business you are in, but I am sure that you don't do things any differently. People are just more naturally pissed off at mechanics.

Jerry

Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:

Bullshit.

Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.

As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic that was as good as the small independent specialty shops. This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work beyond bread and butter dealer work.

You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly bring your honesty and integrity into question.

I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown around quite a bit.

Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

I am also glad that you have a good relationship with your mechanic. It's like having a relationship with your family doctor, you need to be able to rely upon your mechanic as well. Your doctor and your mechanic will both make mistakes, but they probably have enough "honesty and integrity" to step up and make it right.

If you have yet to meet a dealer tech that can keep up with your local garage, then you have lived a sheltered life, my little Jeeping friend. I am sorry that you feel so strongly against dealer techs. As I advised the other fella, I hope you continue to have a nice relationship with your mechanic, because I don't really need your business. You aren't alone -- I have people in my shop every day that insist that the corner mechanic would have fixed it cheaper, or better, or faster. I tell them to go ahead and have it done elsewhere, but the overwhelming majority come back to me. The quality of the job is remembered long after price is forgotten. I didn't make that up, somebody else did, but it applies.

You really gotta calm down, Lon. Try switching to decaf.

Jerry

Approximately 11/28/03 18:16, Jerry Newton uttered for posterity:

I'll bring it into question yet once more. Actually now I'll just call you an out and out liar since I have never in my life used the term "stealership" on any usenet forum or anywhere else. In fact if you weren't such a knee-jerk liar, you might have noticed that I have on many occasions made good comments about my local dealer and the service manager's rather candid good advice.

Bullshit.

Jerry Newton did pass the time by typing:

False to fact.

The same exact service that most dealerships offer at a lower price due to less overhead.

Sometimes that is true. Sometimes that part is the same exact one that Jeep uses, from the same manufacturer. And in the case of the disc brakes I purchsed, a far superior product that the crappy DC units that delaminate when exposed to salt.

Vs the Jeep tech that learned as he went and cost the dealership a whole longblock I6 and me about a week and nearly my life when the oil leak they "fixed" lead up to my engine siezed on the highway? Neophyte mechanics are not unique to any business.

So can NAPA and most other parts houses. So can one of my favorite parts houses, buymopar.com that just happens to be a dealer and sells parts at non-ripoff prices.

Your kidding me, a management type making decisions. Go on, pull the other one. I did however trust the local sevice advisor. He bent over backwards to see that my time was not wasted. I was sorry to see him leave but it was for the best as he now manages a dealership.

Nothing there that any reasonable shop will have. the DRB scantools are not unique to any shop. I have quite a few specialty tools myself. One of my coworkers even has a hydraulic lift, he rebuilds antique cars as a hobby.

I have Snap-On, S&K, and others as well. While not up to 75K it sure comes close to 20K or so. There is nothing wrong with having good tools especially if your using them to earn a living. Never said that. However I do have the luxury of only needing tools for my particular vehicle. One of my friends that used to work for Jeep but now works for Honda has a collection that tops 100K.

Of course. Because that is "warrantee money." Why not pump the insurance company for as much as you can.

Just like the casinos do in Vegas. They want to keep that sucker coming back again and again. So they give out rooms and dinners and shows just so the mark will come back and drop money in their casino.

I design and evaluate communications systems for the US Government that support emergency response, force protection, and nuclear surety around the world. I also evaluate contractors on multi million dollar contracts for communications systems. One of the systems I personally built supports the forces at Prince Sultan Air Force Base (PSAB) in the UAE. My job is being responsible for the integrity of systems that protect the lives of our armed forces and the security of this nation. As a rule I hold all individuals accountable for their actions, but none more so than myself. They refer to my position as a "non combatant". In other words I am expected to put my ass on the line just like any in the armed services, except I go in unarmed.

Why would you say that? I'm not angry at mechanics, nor at you despite what this thread is turning out to be. I am however vehemently opposed to any individual that takes advantage of peoples naiveté for profit.

Actually I despise spammers the most. They are perhaps the only people on this planet I wouldn't mind seeing gassed.

Indeed. This engine has chain-driven camshafts. The serpentine belt is visible. They're about £40.

They didn't.

That is indeed about what it costs at a dealer. If you'd like me to look up exactly what they are supposed to do for the money

I understand there is an independent in Bicester called EDM,

who wouldn't be a million miles away fromyou. I have no idea what they are like as I have never used them, norhave I heard any reports.

That is the serpentine belt, not the cam belt (as it hasn't got one!) They do wear, and they are almost as important as a cam belt would be, in the sense that if it breaks, you will have to get towed home. They cost around £40.

Absolutely true, you get less if you pay less.

Then you are disillusioned. I have worked both sides, and that is how I have the advantage of knowledge. I try to give you a little insight into the business, and you call me a liar. Nice.

It is always true. In the independent, we would call all of the parts houses to get the lowest price. Quality was never a factor, only price.

Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone has to start somewhere. Hey, you got a free engine. If an engine failure nearly cost you your life, I have to bring your driving skills into question.

Didn't you say that YOU were a management type?

You don't know how many calls I get per day asking to borrow one special tool or another. You can't assume that everybody turning wrench is all rigged up with tools.

You don't know what you are talking about. Don't do that.

I should have added, "Nor do I care what business you are in."

Because it is true. When a guy's car breaks, he is on foot, and pissed off about it. Couple it with the fact that he has to pay someone to fix it. Hey, I am not complaining, I wouldn't do this if I couldn't handle it.

I'm not angry at mechanics, nor at you despite what this

Your contractors are doing it to you. Do you only contract non-profit, charitable organizations to do your work?

As always, I enjoy criticism, and look forward to sparring with anyone else that wants to bring my integrity and honesty into question in a public forum.

Jerry

Approximately 12/1/03 05:48, Jerry Newton still blathering:

Economic ignorance. Lower overhead allows lower pricing. Not that all independent shops charge less than dealers, some actually charge the same and one I can name charges more than the dealer located roughly two blocks away. And another local specialty Jeep shop charges well over the local dealer rates and still has a waiting list...with some of that list sent over by two local Jeep dealers.

You aren't offering insight, you are making unfounded one-sided claims. These *may* be based on your own pathetic personal experience, but judging from your posting record, even that is doubtful.

So you worked for a rip-off cheapass shop. Not all independents are as dishonest or cheap as yours. Some even offer price ranges and are willing to discuss the differences between a cheap Chinese muffler and a premium brand like Borla, Abarth, etc.

If you were correct, which by no means you are, none of the premium, better-than-factory, brands would exist...since there would be no shops willing to carry or install them.