Why Jeeps suck.

No, I had never been on this group before, and I bought the liberty before coming here. Needless to say if I had read here about the Liberty first, I would not have bought it.

I probably would not have bought any kind of off road vehicle in fact, since I am not a mechanic. What I want is something I can drive off the dealer's lot and go off roading with. Maybe one Jeep model is more capable than the next, maybe not, but the general impression I get is that none of them are that great without extensive modification. Someone summed it up earlier by saying that "real jeeps are built not bought."

Well, that seems unfortunate because a lot of people like me would enjoy four wheeling but aren't qualified to build their own vehicle. I don't have to sew my own wetsuit to scuba dive; I don't have to fabricate my own parachute to skydive; I don't have to solder together my own silicon to log on to the internet. So why should I have to build my own jeep? Why do so many people want to keep

Anyway, to answer your question, my son (who does not have his own computer) has also used my account in the past to get on the internet. I believe he asked some questions in a different newsgroup about some mechanical problems he was having on an unrelated vehicle. (One which I advised against purchasing, I might add.) Some yahoo brought that into this discussion in an apparent attempt to change the subject or make me look dumb, but it's really not relevant to the matter at hand. It was not me who brought that whole point into this conversation.

I do apologize for the comments about grease monkeys, etc. I flew off the handle and I shouldn't have. I didn't expect to be mercilessly ridiculed for sharing my story. (At least not by the majority of people, there is always some lone jerk on the internet.) But if you look at the 100+ messages in response to me, about 90% of them are really nasty, calling me names, laughing at my experience, saying I shouldn't be allowed to drive without a babysitter, and so on. There are one or two people who have politely disagreed or even made constructive points, but the vast majority decided it was just time to make fun of the new guy and see if they can drive him off. Well, they succeeded, so this is the last you will hear from Ken Garman. Next time I am tempted to come to this jeep forum and make conversation or read the comments I will reconsider and do something more pleasurable, like tearing my fingernails off with a pair of pliers.

I am sorry you got so much negativism after such a bad experience.

My personal thoughts are that the Libby is a fine vehicle, it is just not meant for serioius offroad work. the IFS (independent front suspension) is not cut out for offroad duty. The only IFS equipped machines you see doing serious offroad work are heavily modified. There is a reason the desert racers put much wider front axles on their trucks, and that reason is to improve the range of motion that is available. It should be obvious that a short axle will not be able to move very far, and a longer axle will travel further given the same range of movement when measured in degrees from the fulcrum. That is, a tire will move further over 15 degrees if it is further from the fulcrum (in the case of suspension systems, the center point of its mounting to the frame). In the narrow axle of the KJ, an IFS is inherently limited in its travel. The result will be that important (and expensive) parts will drag on the ground, and potentially be torn from the bottom of the vehicle.

The KJ also has an inherent limitation in its rack and pinion steering system. R&P is not a bad system in itself, it just is not robust enough for serious offroading. R&P, like IFS, is better suited for highway travels. Generally speaking, ANYTHING that makes highway travel safer and more comfortable will present limitations for offroading. Which brings me to the KJs motor. The I6 motor is much better suited for offroading because it develops something like 80% of its available torque at speeds just above idle speed. The V6 also gives impressive torque figures, but it does't product its torque until the engine speed is almost too high to be useful for offroad travel. The torque curve of the V6 is better suited for highway travel than for offroading.

The KJ can do some things offroad that other vehicles in its class can not even begin to do, but the Libby is a far cry from the XJ. We, the true offroad community, feel slighted at DCs decision to replace the XJ with the KJ. They told us for a long time that the KJ would be an added model to the line-up, but at the last minute, it became a replacement model. Had they asked us first, we would have advised against a marketing plan that took the last solid axle, I6, SUV out of the line up and replaced it with a V6, IFS. We would have encouraged the new configuration it was added to the line up as a new model, but we do not think it is a good replacement model.

d/c claims 85% AT IDLE.

think back....jeep said the SAME THING about the wrangler being added to the cj line-up. this seems to be a consistent pattern.

Approximately 8/15/03 05:07, Kenneth Garman uttered for posterity:

It does if he is a really really stupid putz. And if there is anyone with any doubt that he is the poster child for dump putz, keep reading the whining.

Nah, just that you are expected to have sufficient intellect to have a clue, or at least enough pocket change to buy one when you need it.

Because you are a dumb putz, and that is being extremely charitable.

Worse, you are exactly what is *wrong* with offroad vehicles these days and why the good ones are all disappearing. Some dumb putz with the brains of a baked toad and the driving skills of a flea goes out and buys a vehicle that makes him feel all butch. Then said putz heads for difficult offroad driving areas and busts up the vehicle. Sadly, the putz survives and pieces of the vehicle don't.

You really *are* a dumb putz aren't you.

I suppose next you will buy an Isuzu and complain when it can't outrun a bullet.

With your concept of the total lack of brains and responsibility on the driver, I will bet big bucks that you could trash a Humvee or 3/4 ton tac vehicle due to your braindead driving tactic of simply neglecting to check clearance and trail.

As noted, you are the poster child of what is wrong with modern off-road vehicles. Without the slightest skill set or homework, you take a perfectly good offroad vehicle into terrain above *your* driving skill level.

We don't know. None of us are typical consumers. Perhaps you should subscribe to Consumer Reports, which seems more suited to your style.

Ya know, if I were as obviously stupid as you are, I really don't think I'd be blasting it all over the internet.

I drive a Grand Cherokee. There are trails around Moab I wouldn't even *think* of trying. However, since the concept of thought is so obviously foreign to you, next we suppose you'll be trying it in your BMW X-5 or Nissan Murano.

Approximately 8/15/03 06:18, someone uttered for posterity:

Please. An idiot is someone with an IQ between 10 and 20. This is about 50 points more than our Super Offroad Liberty Driver has demonstrated.

Question: Can an Aztek go far enough off road to even need that tent you can add on?

your answer lies in the second paragraph. Jeep Liberty. it is not a jeep.

Robert penned:

Kenneth relax you are not an idiot. You just could not afford the H2 Hummer and air fair to Greenland.

Keep saving the money from your paper route and someday......

WOW! Look at the front and rear axle clearance on the Wrangler! 70.9" front and 68.4" rear!!! Those must be some big-a$$ tires they're putting on it these days! :-P

Does the north pole qualify as the suburbs?

Ken I understand your anxiety, however, when i bought my first jeep at a dealership, i made sure i knew more than the salesperson (not very tough in some cases)...meaning, i researched my @ss off to make sure i knew what i was getting...with that sort of investment, there is no way in hell that i am going to listen to what a salesperson has to say. their job at that point is to get me the best price for me. if you truly did your research, read this group and read reviews, you certainly wouldn't be in this situation. so shame on you.

secondly, i have never been to MOAB, however, from everything i have read in magazines, internet and this NG, i would be nervous taking my Rube out there, simply because as an off-roader, i am smart enough not to bite off more than i can chew, especially with out an experienced driver/guide with me. i have been in 4x4's for 20 years. again, shame on you.

finally, mopar parts do not make a jeep off road worthy. (at least not for MOAB from what i read). did they have skid plates? that would have been a nice investment from what i hear.

ken, we all make are mistakes, however, i don't think it is fair to broadbrush a great line of vehicles because of some poor choices on your part. i think you were truly naive in this purchase and your mindset. cool down, go on a trailride with some off-roaders, and then make your judgement. good luck, and hope you find what your looking for.

IMHO

I think you are right.Chrysler does bull the capabilities of the liberty,as does all other manufacturers of their suv models.We live in a buyer beware marketplace though. The fact is 95% of the suv's are never taken any farther of road than the grass at the park.Many people just want the 4x4 "I am capable of going where I want even if it's only on the pavement " look. That is where the money is and thats what marketing is going to go after.The salesman was correct in saying it was never designed for what you tried.Unfortunately , you wanted to really go for it.I don't think there are too many factory vehicles that can handle tough trails.The market is too small.A bit of research and talking to off roaders would have saved you a lot of trouble and money. Jeeps ( excluding the liberty) are good capable vehicles. I just hope that Daimler/Chrysler doesn't ruin a good line by doing things like making Libertys.Look for used wrangler ( research it well ! ) start out on some mild trails and work your way up.You just may change your mind.Remember you can tell a car salesman is lying if his lips are moving.

"MJ w/ 2 TJ's" wrote in message news:eep%a.93496$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

Yeah, it's in the northern suburbs of Houston... Just a little past the little community of Dallas...

Tahoe, actually... The Suburban is a little longer... The Tahoe was designed for those people who just don't quite have a garage long enough for a Suburban... Or for those people who want to park their vehicle in the garage and be able to walk around it without opening the garage door...

Or possibly for those people so spatially challenged that they cannot park a Suburban... Kind of a trainer vehicle, I guess... Of course, the Suburban is just a trainer vehicle for driving a school bus...

The fact that he compares a Jeep to a "car" is telling. What a moron.

Course it doesn't. They assume that the buyer knows what he wants. You bought a soccer-mom vehicle.

I don't know how you thought a light bar, tubular side steps, or a hood cover would keep you from getting stuck.

Yup, statements like that tend to set off my troll alarm....

Reminds me of the troll awhile back about the couple that bought a Rubicon and compained about the stiff ride over the speed bumps in the local mall parking lot where they were "testing out all the 4 wheel drive switches and levers."

• * * Matt Macchiarolo
  formatting link
  formatting link
  formatting link