probable fuel starvation when driving uphill (200Tdi Disco 1993)

Apart from the distance (in my case about 10 miles) those are very similar symptoms to what I had with a failed injector seal the other week. Completely different engine though mine is a TD5 so there were combustion gases getting into the common rail. But on the basis of similar symptoms I'd look for an iffy fuel line or joint that could allow air to be drawn air into the system or maybe collapse (internally) when there is a increase in the suck.

At the same time flush all the lines through (both ways) particulary those pre the filter. Sounds as if there has been quite a bit of muck in the fuel over time, maybe there is a little bit of crud acting as a valve when the flow rate increases.

Dave thanks,

will check the injector seals, fuel return rubber pipes between the other injectors (especially after having the change one of them) and will use some compressed air to blow the fuel supply and fuel return pipes from the fuel tank to the fuel filter and vice versa.

Thanks again for the input and hope your problem with the TD5 has now been sorted out.

Take care Pantelis Giamarellos

Not sure that is relevant with a 200TDi. On the TD5 if the bottom seal fails combustion gases get into the common (pressurised to 50 odd psi) fuel rail that in the injectors pass through.

Only clutching at straws, you have already changed/checked the obvious things like pumps filters etc.

Yes, something over =A3300 lighter in the wallet though. New injector seals on all five injectors, new injector harness (it had oil in it), new front cam seal (leaking) and new rocker cover gasket. It now starts on the button and seems to be running smoother than it was even before it started to noticeably play up. I've got the copper washer that failed. Silly isn't it, a =A31.94 (inc VAT) copper washer stops the engine working. At a push I bet you could make one from a bit of opened out and flattened 15mm tube...

Dave Hi,

I have just finished replacing the fuel return rubber and fabric hoses between the injectors. The appear quite "weathered up". After all this a

1993 model year vehicle so they are 18 years old...

I have also emptied the fuel sedimentor. I was extremely lucky and managed to open the small white plastic plug from underneath. This plug has NEVER been opened for as long as I own the vehicle (since 2000) and I am sure it has never been opened before.

A lot of grey water, several debris, soil and tiny rocks came out and when diesel started pouring out it was black and oily/sludgy. I only refitted the plug when fresh clean diesel came off.

The engine started immediately but when I took the car for a drive it started misbehaving, the idle went up and down. I started pressing the accelerator pedal softly and idle started leveling. After than I pressed the pedal so that the revs went up to around 1500 to

2000 rpm and after about 30 seconds I started driving once more. The car felt jerky but after about 2 kms it also started feeling OK.

I will take a drive to some uphill roads tomorrow morning and let's hope everything will be OK.

------------

The oil in the engine loom problem is something I have also experienced first hands with two TD5 vehicles of good friends of mine here in Greece. As for the injectors seals I totally agree with you. Such kind of thing should not happen on a car that is supposed to be able to travel around the world and back.

Take care and thanks again for your assistance. Pantelis

Not sure that is relevant with a 200TDi. On the TD5 if the bottom seal fails combustion gases get into the common (pressurised to 50 odd psi) fuel rail that in the injectors pass through.

Only clutching at straws, you have already changed/checked the obvious things like pumps filters etc.

Yes, something over £300 lighter in the wallet though. New injector seals on all five injectors, new injector harness (it had oil in it), new front cam seal (leaking) and new rocker cover gasket. It now starts on the button and seems to be running smoother than it was even before it started to noticeably play up. I've got the copper washer that failed. Silly isn't it, a £1.94 (inc VAT) copper washer stops the engine working. At a push I bet you could make one from a bit of opened out and flattened 15mm tube...

Had similar with a RRC with the VM engine. in that case it was the fuel line where it comes out of the tank which had become perforated. As it only had diesel in when being pulled up by the pump from the engine (lift pump) it never leaked diesel but did leak air in. Initially (for months) it was just stalling after start then lumpy then fine. As the perforation got worse the symptoms developed and affected the engine upon deceleration it would stall due to lack of fuel , pump not pumping fast enough to keep the air and fuel coming in.

This week I went camping and got talking to a Disco 300 tdi owner (trying to lighten my caravan by giving away old copies of landrover mags I've been carting around). Anyway he said he had problems with the water seporator becoming pourous on the top of the casting.. worth checking as that would give similar symptoms to the leaking / pourous pipe.

Hope you manage to get it sorted. Let us know how you go on.

Lee D

All that muck, water, etc in the fuel system can't have been helping things. The 200TDi isn't computer controlled is it? Computer controlled engines mask an awful lot of problems until the computer runs out of range in the tweaks it can do to keep the engine running and at best (for the conditions) efficiency.

A visiting friend complained that his (petrol) car wasn't preforming very well. Lifted the bonnet, found a small split hose in the air/fuel/emission control system. Tapped that up with self-amalgamting tape. Took the plugs out, each one had an umbrella of deposit over the outer electrode and a gap of about 75 thou with and well eroded electrodes. Local garage didn't have any replacements so I just cleaned and gapped as best I could. Friend reported that the car now went like a bomb... I doubt that a none computer controlled engine would have started let alone run reasonably well in that condition.

At least you could fashion something out of a bit of scrap copper should the need arise rather than being some exotic alloy or shape. I suspect the hard bit would be getting the old ones out from the bottom of the injector recess. Nigel Price's had the bonnet off to allow access for a slide hammer.

Sounds like you found some Camel Trophy "souvenirs" or something. :-)

If the crud had got that far, change the main filter again!

Also, check the little gause filter in the lift pump. In fact, strip that down and clean out it's little one-way valves, and while you have it all in pieces, blow the lift line back to the tank with an air line (Low presure!)

There is another gause/sintered bead filter at the inlet of the main injection pump. That *Should* never see any dirt, but if the main filter/lift system was struggling, they can when old sometimes feed themselves from the spill side. Then air/dirt can get in causing all sorts of strange things. Those pumps will self purge (of air) but not dirt.

If after you've cleaned/replaced everything and have clean fuel all the way to the main injeciton pump, the only thing left is that injection pump, and injectors. Find a localy recomended diesel specialist, but be aware the injectors are repair by replacement, so not cheap by any means. The pump can be overhauled, if not too badly damaged.

Hope you get it sorted.

Dave B.

A BIG THANKS to everybody for your input and suggestions.

I have ordered a new lift pump but it will take around 5 days to arrive in Greece (200Tdi Landies are rare as hens teeth in Greece and there is no spare parts stock anywhere in the country)

I will remove the lift pump and give it a good clean. Will try to do the same with the fuel supply line to the main pump. Will also put some low volume compressed air (a small tyre compressor will do?) to the fuel supply and return hoses.

thanks again to everybody for your input.

I will of course advise you of the outcome.

Take care Pantelis

In message , Dave Liquorice writes

Computers weren't invented in the days the 200TDi

Don't you believe it! Many Heavy Vehicle and Industrial Diesel engines have been computer controled for much longer than those in cars and small van's. Just that they weren't known as "Computers".

The technology goes way back, probably to the airospace industry in truth.

Computers only do what you tell them, but they do it repeatedly many many times a second. So, you best tell them exactly what you want them to do, correctly the first time! Also, any sensor readings must make sense to the controling software. That is all down to the designer/programmer.

Garbage in = garbage out etc...

Even the 200TDi disco, had some smarts in the body control box, also many contempory cars had electronicly controled systems for decades, if not directly the engine. Most (if not all now?) alternators are electronicly controled (I think only the French held out for a few years, with vibrating relays etc, on some Peugot/Citroen/Renault units) many also now have built in small microprocessors for smarter charging, and battery/machine/drive belt protection. Not that you can communicate with them in any way. However, some new Fords (among others) now have a direct communication path between the alternator and ECU for Smart Charging control, delay'd/soft start etc, among other things...

Electronics is generaly extremly reliable, but can easily fail due to water ingress, excessive vibration, overheating or electrical overload. I.e. Finger trouble, bad connectors, numptys welding not reading the "Caution!" section in the manual first, fitting the wrong parts, or just elsewhere messing with things not knowing exactly what they are doing, or why...

In cases where something odd starts to happen, you need to stand back and think first, what else is connected to the system that's showing the symptoms. Could it be some other system sending it bad info, or not responding to it's other needs. THAT info is sadly also not often available outside the industry (Heck, many in the auto industry don't know of it) but some of it can be figured out by observing other things. Like what else has stopped working, or is otherwise acting up...

Vehicles are now more like mobile data networks, powered by an engine of some sort. A lot of DIY maintenance is still posible, but convincing the monitoring systems you've done what's needed can still be dificult and expensive without the appropriate tools, such as OBDE connectors and utilities etc, plus the knowledge to use it. THAT's where the main dificulty is, the info is not often available outside the industry. But it is slowley getting better.

There is some good general info here in the form of case studdies, of various auto woes and troubles...

scroll down to the list of "Real Life Diagnostics" and further down to the list of "Everyday Diagnostics". Enjoy.

DaveB

I liked this one:-

"Is it Possible to Determine the Fault Just by the Vehicle Owner?"

Well mine hasn't!! It hasn't even got a 'body control box'.

It will run quite happily with no electrical power whatsoever as long as you disable the cut-off solenoid first.

The nearest it gets to a computer is a timer in the glow plug circuit and wiper delay, oh! and in the flasher unit.

Jeff

also

In message , DaveB writes

WTF is all that about. It was a joke. 99% of people on this newsgroup know the 200TDi was a mechanically fuelled engine. The 300 Tdi was much more modern -it has an EGR system. (Another joke, sort of - more sarcasm I suppose)

Is it possible by just giving it a good looking at - and kicking a tyre of course?

Jeff you are wrong (LOL, only kidding)

you forgot the dashboard mounted digital clock and the factory fitted or aftermarket ICE unit !!!! (LOL !!!!)

Take care Pantelis Giamarellos

PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!!!

I have tried first to apply some low volume compressed air to the fuel supply line.

I did so by removing the hose providing fuel from the fuel filter to the big pump (the one distributing fuel to the injectors. The easiest approach was to remove the rubber hose from the fuel filter mounting bracket. This way I was able to fit the cheap tire compressor directly to the metallic hose (it is the same diameter as a tyre valve).

I have also removed the fuel cap from the fuel tank so as to allow any air to escape more easily (it should be able to escape from the fuel tank venting hoses but opening the fuel cap is a far safer bet I guess.)

The compressor started operating and it slowly crept up to about 12 bars of pressure for about a few seconds. It then lowered to around 6 and started climbing to about 8 bars for a few more second and has kept this reading. I stopped the compressor and let it stand for about a minute.

And then I removed the connector from the metallic hose when I have attached it to the fuel filter mounting bracket. A spray of diesel fuel has erupted with lot of force (I guess it must have been the pressurized fuel inside the fuel filter and still compressed fuel lines)

I refitted the rubber hose and have started the engine. The engine started immediately but then it developed a very erratic idle due to fuel starvation. Pressing the accelerator pedal slowly and gradually for several seconds resulted into properly venting the fuel system (thanks God the Tdi does that by itself).

And then I took the car for a drive.

AT LAST the car behaves as a true and well behaving 200Tdi. I have now covered almost 200 km, going uphill, downhill, in and out of the torque band, up to 4.200 rmp, accelerating from as low as 500 rpm with load and on every gear. There is no more hesitation, no fuel starvation symptoms, nothing at all.

So whatever you do I would suggest the "inflate the fuel supply hoses" approach for such type of problems.

Apperently some of the dirt, debris and sludge was still inside the fuel line from the fuel tank to the sedimentor and from there to the fuel filter. "Inflating" the system must have cleaned/removed them and the engine drives and feels again as new.

Thanks to everybody for your assistance.

Take care Pantelis Giamarellos

Drat it! You're right!!

Jeff

Glad you got it sorted. Hope it keeps behaving now.

Lee D