Re: Acceleration in 2001 ES300

In being of bellicose mind posted:


But rest assured ... the Corolla ... having a throttle CABLE connecting the gas pedal to the throttle butterfly directly WON'T lag, hesitate, or argue with you about your decision to move the throttle butterfly.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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And then when you've stopped lead footing it around town for a while, the ECU will go back to its regularly scheduled programming. Throttle by wire is an answer to a question nobody asked.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM


In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com,
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Philip® wrote:

If Lexus is not going to take that out, the very least they can provide is a RESET button.
It can be hidden under the Lexus logo in the middle of the steering wheel. Nobody will know its there. We can even push the RESET button while nobody is watching, so the car acts like a normal car to everyone :) You know, like this: "This is my Lexus. See the Lexus logo here? (push the RESET button now). It is a great car!"
Even an aftermarket add-on RESET button will be fine.
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Why don't you and Phiilip carry on via private email? We've had tens of posts saying the same thing. Your complaints are well known by now.
- Mark
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Net Nanny Mark. The more complaints about a particular issue that are made public, the better. As I said earlier, Toyota/Lexus does monitor these newsgroups.
Now if it troubles you that your beloved Lexus is less than perfect .... smell the coffee.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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Bob Muse wrote:

Isn't that bad for the engine and some other components?
A Lexus Service Consultant once told me to step on the brakes harder if I didn't want to hear the brake squeal. (Where do they find these Lexus Service Consultants from?)
It looks like the Lexus is making us adapt to its ways !
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Philip® wrote:

Something tells me the "throttle-by-wire" guys at Toyota will be looking for other models to mess with. The Corolla may have been temporarily spared.
Hang on to a good car. They won't make 'em like they used to.
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

The spying eyes of Toyota/Lexus watch this forum and many others. I started my "anti black box" campaign a couple of years ago. The only reason for all this ECU / actuator shit is that smart gadgets seem(?) to sell cars. It's not cheaper, it's more complicated, and is prone to more failures ... all of which equal more sales in both repair parts and entire vehicles when all this unnecessary shit starts failing. Go price the sliding door actuator for any of these mini vans if you want an example. While you're at it, look into a transmission overhaul of ANY front wheel drive automatic, especially the new generation 5 speed units. OH ... and how about those "smart" ignition keys at $150 a copy?
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM

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Hey Phillip....
Wake up dude, it's the 21st century where chips rule everything.
If you crave simplicity, maybe you should look for a nice '57 Chevy 210 with a stovebolt 6 and 2 speed powerglide.
PS... this is not to deny that Lexus did some very sloppy designwork on a system that could have been as responsive as the Eurofighter. (yes Phil, it too is jammed full of chips and glass controls... and will outfly anything because of its chip control systems) It's a Lexus fault, NOT the black box concept.
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Tankie.... DUDE (condescendingly). Chips do not rule everything. My bitch is the ever pervasive expansion of ECU controlled functions that are not germane to the basic functions of the engine or transmission. I have at my fingertips 2003 and 2004 Toyota books outlining the operation and theory of all ECU controlled body devices (they also cover power train devices and systems). JUST reading over the body devices and systems controlled by ECU's is .... MAKE WORK ... to keep engineers employed. There's no real need for 90% of it all. Sorry to bust your youthful, techno embracing, bubble but I've got the details in front of me.
I disagree with your final assertion ... that all this crap is a Lexus fault. All other manufacturers who are racing down this foolish path of delegating simple functions to ECUs are having the same problems. If you doubt me, get to know an experienced BMW mechanic ... ask him about I-Drive on the E65. These cars are arguably the most ECU controlled piles of electronic controlled crap on the road. Luxurious automobile until one of the ECUs get a migraine. Lexus is headed that way. Too bad.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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BMW and MB too?
You are right that this is OVER engineering to do something simple, but there is no doubt that it could be done correctly... IE when the throttle is matted, all other system parameters defer to those needed to generate max power right away.
Again, you are correct... a mechanical setup does do this just fine, but so can a black box if it is programmed correctly... that's where I blame Lexus for dumping under-developed crap onto us, and charging us top dollar for it.
This throttle responce issue has changed my fantacy from an ES330 to one for a Chrysler 300. It's got a HEMI and 100 hp more for the same price. I know it is a hunk of junk, but there will be no throttle lag here! Ant talk about the "fun factor" :)
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right
If only it were so simple.
The issue doesn't generally manifiest itself when the driver mashes the throttle from a standing start. Engine response is generally quite good in these circumstances, because the computer does exactly what you are suggesting - it says to heck with emissions, fuel economy, etc. and just goes for broke.
The problem tends to manifest itself when the user "rolls on" the throttle when they're moving at a slow to moderate speed. At this point, the computer has at least six things it needs to coordinate to make more power: 1) throttle plate position; 2) transmssion ratios and/or torque convertor lockup; 3) VVTi valve timing; 4) ignition timing; 5) air-fuel mixture; and 6) intake runners since the intake system can vary runner length. Several of these are mechanical systems with mechanical lag, others can be adjusted instantenously. The ECU software designer has to figure out the right way to orchestrate these six things to make the engine smootly roll on just the right amout of power while keeping within emissions constraints on the EPA test cycle and returning optimal fuel economy, and to do it under widely varying loads, temps, and ambient elevations for the life of the car.
This is an extremely difficult area of work for ECU software designers. I'm not saying Lexus couldn't have done better, but they are not stupid, they are not underfunded, and they are not trying to make life miserable for drivers. It is a tough engineering problem. It is not unique to Lexus or Toyota - virtually every forum for every automobile has complaints to varying degrees.
And I doubt you've driven the new Hemi 300. It may very well have similar issues.
- Mark
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

However, they have succeeded in doing just that ... making the Lexus driving experience less enjoyable. All this complication to meet emissions has unintended consequences. Higher costs, infintesimal emissions and fuel mileage improvements, lower owner satisfaction. Must of this electronic crap is MAKE WORK for engineers. There.... said it a second time.
Personally, I am not going to intentionally be an unpaid field tester for these "work in progress" software and hardware CRAP projects, regardless of manufacturer. That's why I say, the lower end cars Toyota makes are "better" cars. The good ideas that got the bugs worked out trickle down to the lower end cars. The fluffy crap doesn't.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Well, let's exhaust the little knowledge I have about the new 300 Hemi. About 6 weeks ago, I was at Mt. Palomar in northern San Diego county. A 300 Hemi pulled up to the restaurant .... had two drivers and NJ manfacturer plates on it. I took two pictures (front and looking in thru the driver's window) and talked to the test driver. "It moves out good and doesn't handle half bad for a big heavy sedan." I didn't ask for a tour under the hood. The fit and finish both inside and out was quite good, at first blush. Take a look at the hemi engine internals. Two valve engine, push rods, 2 spark plugs per cylinder. All low rpm torque.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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