Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

I think we should also keep in mind that this is Lexus's first attempt to nip at the heels of the 3er. While BMW has had a 20 year + head start with the 3er, Lexus is just testing the water's w/ the first generation of the IS (not a bad effort for the rookie model), by the 2nd or 3rd complete design change I think they will surpass the 3er. Toyota has a habit of introducing a very good product in a new segment of the market, but usually by the 2nd or 3rd generation they surpass the market leader...in terms of the best product, if not volume. There are always exceptions, the T100, Tundra taking aim at the Ford F150, but im sure they will get it right by the next model re-design. BTW, Ford should really look out for the upcoming Nissan Titan.

Someone once said, in a book about the history of Coca-Cola, that anyone could make Coke. Sure, the recipe is all secret, etc.--but why? In this day and age, so what if you had the recipe for Coke? You could make it, and it would be a perfect copy--but would people buy it? You aren't Coke. You don't have the history or the marketing muscle of Coke.

In other words, in no way would you be able to sell the exact same product and do what Coke does.

Get the idea?

If I had about 45k to buy a car. The BMW would be near the bottom of my list.

Pars

elmo wrote:

I think we should also keep in mind that this is Lexus's first attempt to nip at the heels of the 3er. While BMW has had a 20 year + head start with the 3er, Lexus is just testing the water's w/ the first generation of the IS (not a bad effort for the rookie model), by the 2nd or 3rd complete design change I think they will surpass the 3er. Toyota has a habit of introducing a very good product in a new segment of the market, but usually by the 2nd or 3rd generation they surpass the market leader...in terms of the best product, if not volume. There are always exceptions, the T100, Tundra taking aim at the Ford F150, but im sure they will get it right by the next model re-design. BTW, Ford should really look out for the upcoming Nissan Titan.

I get the point you are trying to make, but saying a BMW is Coke and a Lexus is Kmart Special 5cent soda does not fly. I would say BMW Vs. Lexus is comparing Coke to 7up...different folks, different strokes. Plus, what's in BMW's history that sets it apart from the likes of Toyota? If we were talking about a Ferrari then you would have a valid point.

The simple purpose of my post was to find out the objective (mechanical) reason why Toyota can't/won't build a car w/ the ride of a BMW, because that is one of the main reasons people prefer to fork over thousands more for a BMW over a Lexus..u know, it's the "Ultimate DRIVING Machine" according to BMW and its fans.

I can't wait to see/drive the V8 IS...and when it looses its rice ricer looks.

Same here. :)

45K buys an awfully cherry classic car. Probably get - well, pick something other than a Firarri or simmilar. :)

I get the point you are trying to make, but saying a BMW is Coke and a Lexus is Kmart Special 5cent soda does not fly. I would say BMW Vs. Lexus is comparing Coke to 7up...different folks, different strokes. Plus, what's in BMW's history that sets it apart from the likes of Toyota? If we were talking about a Ferrari then you would have a valid point.

The simple purpose of my post was to find out the objective (mechanical) reason why Toyota can't/won't build a car w/ the ride of a BMW, because that is one of the main reasons people prefer to fork over thousands more for a BMW over a Lexus..u know, it's the "Ultimate DRIVING Machine" according to BMW and its fans.

I can't wait to see/drive the V8 IS...and when it looses its rice ricer looks.

Without a doubt Italian cars are the most beautiful of all. Unfortunately, FIAT really stood for "fix it again, tony" which is why they're pretty much out of the market in the US.

I agree that the RX7 was a very attractive car when it was brought out in th 70s, and I like the current one. The Miata's a knockoff of a Lotus and Mazda actually got it right. But most Japanese cars look either like the automotive equivalent of a transistor radio or (more recently) like one of the cartoonists who draws animes changed jobs.

That's not what I said. The KMart Special soda isn't even close. It's a Corolla of a soda.

The Lexus may be a BMW in every way, mechanically, but it is not a BMW. And therein lies the distinction: the human psyche will refuse to acknowledge it, by and large, because the human psyche is responding to

40 years of BMW marketing and the social perceptions that have come about because of that.

Like I said, you can make a liquid that is, in all physical and chemical properties, identical to what Coca Cola sells. But you can't use the Coca Cola name. And without the Coca Cola name, and all that surrounds it due to 100 years of marketing and being internalized by the public, you can't do squat to compete.

So, you compete on a different level.

in article y2S7b.668$ snipped-for-privacy@sea-read.news.verio.net, elmo at snipped-for-privacy@fake.com wrote on 9/10/03 10:33 PM:

20 year start? Remember, Lexus is a brand. This is Toyota, after all. They've been doing this a very long time, and have had plenty of opportunities to "win the crown" from BMW. I keep hearing about how the next generation this or that is finally going to trounce BMW. But it is yet to happen. BMW doesn't sit still either, you know. Certainly the IS is a decent car, but it was a blatant 3 copy, with a heavier, less powerful cast iron engine rescued from the old Supra. That's sad, because Toyota has better engines than this, but felt compelled to copy BMW's I6. Nissan didn't make the same mistake with the G35, and has come much closer to BMW's performance level. The IS is probably on par with the 3 series, except that it's the old E36 3 series that was discontinued in 99. The IS interior and exterior styling are in the "boy racer" mode (a big mistake IMO), and there's no coupe. Where I live,they are sold well below sticker price, but still rather scarce on the roads. Where most customers are concerned, there's no contest.

I think you are living in a dream world. Posting to more than one NG is the sign of a spammer or troll but here is one answer.

Why can't the Japs make a BMW - they can and so can the Chinese (BMW are opening a factory out there)

How many BMWs are sold and to whome against the quantity of Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans. Who buys the Lexus - Wannabe BMW and Mercedes drivers that have NEVER driven one but bellieve the advertisments.

The Lexus is aimed at Cadillac owners that want something DIFFERENT and will buy only US built iron (don't forget that BMW also build in the US, UK and China and so does the Japs)

Don't kid yourself ----- A design is copyright.... The small pushrod Nissan engines are based on the AUSTIN OHV engine from the A30/A35/Morris Minor from

1954 and aslo fitted to the Mini etc. Remember not only was BMWs first car a rebadged Austin 7 - Nissan's was too. The later Nissan OHC engines were based on the Mercedes OHC lumps as fitted to the cars from about '54 onwards. Take a look - almost a clone as with the Nissan OHV engines.

BMW is a "driver's car" where as the Japs build cars to be replaced every 2 years (No old cars in Japan) the ride and look are everything as are the TOYS!

15 year old BMWs drive as new (when looked after) 15 year old Japs - not many about but those that are need TLC and lots of rust repairs etc.

BTW have you seen what VW have done to Bently and that fake RR Hummer. I've seen

10 ton lorries take up less road space.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Hmmmm, that's interesting. There may be no old cars in Japan, but the Japanese have built a reputation--very well earned--with cars that last MUCH longer, on average, than any other type of car. And they do so with MUCH less money poured into those cars over that time.

I'm sorry?

You said something about this thread coming from a troll or spammer, but it's you who's the troll here.

"The IS interior and exterior styling are in the "boy racer" mode (a big mistake IMO)"

100% agreed, that is the IS300's achilles heel, and is exactly why I decided against purchasing this model.

snipped-for-privacy@fake.com

Excuse me? Aimed at Cadillac owners? Have you seen the newest pieces of crap that Cadillac is selling lately? The CTS looks like a cross between the Apache helicopter and the stealth fighter, nothing but straight panels. What happened to the idea of European styling and flair? Next to the Pontiac Aztech, it's the ugliest freaking car on the road. I can not imagine that Lexus is in any way competing with the brain-dead folks who are buying crappo Cadillac, as it's more an affair of the heart for them then of the mind.

in article C9%7b.2253$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews4.bellsouth.net, Steve Larson at snipped-for-privacy@NOSPAM.com wrote on 9/11/03 8:56 AM:

Well, I'm no fan of the CTS, but it seems to have found a following in the states. It is different-whereas much of what Lexus is building strikes me as "Mercedes Light".

You might want to keep in mind *who* was doing some of these designs. The 507 is unquestionably a stunning design. The same guy (von Goertz) later designed the original Nissan/Datsun 240Z. While I don't remember who did the 328, the E9 and its E3 (sedans) stablemates were both largely derived from the 1962 1600 with some great and simple touches from Michelotti (the 1600 was originally designed without the kidney grilles that he added - and that we still see). IIRC, some of the E9 period rooflines came from Pininfarina. [Again off the top of my head,] so did the '72 Turbo showcar/M1 design which I think is still great. I'd agree with your assessment of European vs. Japanese designers.

Here's where we part ways for two reasons. BMW's 'flame surfacing' is a product of Chris Bangle's warped mind and he is (to my chagrin) American. I'm hoping to get into an E39 some time soon so I don't have to drive one of those Godawful 'Banglized' 5ers anytime in the next decade or so.

Yup. See above as well. And I love Jaguars ... especially the 'saloons'.

-- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)

The other day, I sat in a Dodge SRT4 (look it up; it's a seriously hotted-up Neon, but Dodge doesn't badge it as such). It felt *great* sitting still. Like showroom stock race cars I've driven. Then, I arranged for a ride ...

A lot like that, only he wasn't driving; I was. It has a suspension more tuned than the racing Neon ACRs and more than some stock class race cars I've driven. It has about 65 more horsepower run through a turbo and a cat, but *no* mufflers. It has a helluva lot better shifter (the brightest spot). It screams and it sticks (autocross gumball Goodriches on those 17-inch wheels) and reminds me of nothing so much as an old 5-liter Mustang. That is, 'crude but effective'. My wife was starting to get motion sickness from a 5-mile ride even though I was trying to 'pussyfoot' the thing to mask its nature - and this is a woman who's ridden the right seat with me in an Alfa 155 down the Amalfi Drive (a 4-hour autocross course!) without losing her lunch. It was insufferably loud, especially in the back seat. So I'm not gettin' one. But it was an enlightening experience, considering that she's driving a Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Sport 5-speed that can do nearly everything the Dodge could do with an almost infinite amount

*more* refinement. I was reminded why I've been driving BMWs and Audis ever since I got out of Toyotas into a 2002 some 20 years ago. While my '87 FX-16 was a lotta fun, it still lacked 'something' that the BMWs (at least up through the E28/E30) all have - an unquantifiable 'character'.

Actually, I've found that if you want to buy ego inflation, a Jaguar does it a helluva lot better - and cheaper - than a BMW. It's crazy how impressed average people are with our 'entry-level' X-Type (Yeah; it really *is* just a *very nice* AWD Ford Mondeo/Contour.) compared to *any* BMW I've ever had. It still comes down to your essential (but slightly corrected) conclusion: "Oh; nice Lexus." "That BMW is the *second* coolest car on the block!" "Look! There's a red

*Jag*!!" ;^)

-- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)

MAny can't wait for the ROVER/MG (Ford) V8 engined 4WD sports sedan but it too will never be a BMW nor a FORD Special - even BMW buy diesel engines from Toyota and Peugeot as do FORD, VOLVO etc.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

-------------------------------------------------

No, they bought the design and tooling when GM was done with it. As Range Rover did by buying the old GM (Buick 240?) aluminum block V-8. If they don't license the design or buy it, an outright copy will bring them lots of grief, as the original designers (and possible patent holder) hauls them into court...

You can open it up and steal a few design solutions (and claim that they were obvious), but not make a direct copy of said design. Too easy for the original inventor to prove their case.

Someone brought up PC Clones recently - they did not copy the IBM PC BIOS (it would have been too easy to show the copied sections of code), they had to reverse-engineer it. By having one team document exactly what the BIOS did and how it did it in excruciating detail, and then having a separate 'clean room' programming team (people that had never worked for IBM, so they couldn't be accused of stealing trade secrets) design a program from scratch that reacted as the design document said it needed to. Right down to the bugs.

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