Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

Porsches to Germans are like Monte Carlos to us. They rather have Italian or BMW. I have a friend Heintz who lives around the corner from me He is a 70 year old consultant to a German manufacturer. He goes to Germany once a year. His take on America's so called love affair with Porches? The uninformed and idiot Blondes who can barely pronounce the name are privvy to the car. You meet a blonde say you have a Porsche and she bends over backwards,....or forwards. I like to say I have a Porsche even though I own two BMW's. A front Porsche and a back Porsche. Come on over and sit and chat.

Reply to
Clark Kent
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The Japanese are smarter than the Americans. They only buy imported products when they can't buy domestic. They support their own economy first, we should be so smart.

mike hunt

Steve Lars>

Steve Lars>

Reply to
StoneyRhoades

Must be why they have been in a receccion for a decade now...

Why is it always the defenders of the "American way" that call for the non free-market way?

Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

I violently disagree with the below:

I think the problem is not the American workers, but the American management. There seems to be a common perception that the low level American working man is the lowest of all the citizens in Europe or Japan, but I honestly believe that the real issue is that American MANAGERS are STUPID.

American workers routinely get slammed for their work ethic, yet, their has not been one single promise kept that has been made to them. Despite all of the lies of the last 40 years, they still do what they can to support their country, as a percentage of income donate more to charity than the American upper classes, and still send their sons and daughters off to fight the wars that the American political leaders continually bumble into. I don't think the work ethic is the problem with the American worker. I think the problem is that the American managers of car companies are people that do not know how to build cars, that American engineers are people that know AutoCad but cannot weld.

By contrast let's not forget that the original Mr. Toyoda and the original Mr. Honda founded their companies in the postwar era, and ran them quite successfully until both retired / died very recently. Whereas, American automative companies have been run for the last 30 years by "professional managers", as opposed to inventors. To make a long story short, Toyota was run by a guy that knew how to build cars, whereas GM and Ford have been run by guys that know how to use PowerPoint.

Employees know when their bosses are idiots. It's human nature to test your leaders for competence. If your leaders are competent, you can trust them. If you can trust them, you can build better. When you worked at a Honda plant, there was always a chance that if you took a complaint up to the top about an engine design, or had a beef with something knew coming from the top, there would be Mr. Honda, who would explain that he tried your dumb idea in 1956 and thought that it sucked for XYZ reasons. In the United States, you would get an MBA whose never built a car engine in his or her life. What do they say in America, when managers first come to a car company: "I have to learn the business rules...", that is, they don't know what they are doing. Then, when they hit 40-50, and start to actually know something, they are considered too old and they get whacked again.

Bob Lutz has to be in his early 60s, and, DUE TO HIS AGE AND NOT IN SPITE OF IT, he's one of the bright spots in American automative right now. I LOVE THE NEW CTS. That's not to say that the BMW is a bad car or that the Japanese make bad cars. BMWs and Toyotas and Hondas are all AMAZING CARS. But I'm a flag waving yahoo that likes the way the CTS looks and so I want one.

I'm 35, which is, just starting to get old enough to realize how stupid I was in my 20s!

Reply to
Todd Bandrowsky

Well stated! I concur.

Reply to
Philip®

Ever looked-up

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?? IMHO BMW is just another overhyped sedan.........

do u guys think?

Reply to
Mathu

Reminds me of when Chevy (?) made a car similar to the Toyota Corrola in the mid to late 80s. Supposedly "similar", but funny how the American car had many more problems. Fifteen years later, though, they would probably be much more "similar".

Reply to
Randy Given

I don't either. Travel around a bit and you'll see that Americans work harder and more conscientiously than anyone. Furthermore, it's because they choose to.

Well, sort of. Actually I think the problem is that the American execs are not car guys, they're generic business professionals for whom the product is incidental -- whether it's cars or cola.

This is a good point, and there's a lot of truth to it. It's particularly true of Sony, a company founded by (and run by) a dyed in the wool inventor, design buff, marketer, and gadget freak. Akio Morita and Steve Jobs had a lot in common. Japanese car companies are closer to that original inventor/auteur's culture.

And so is BMW -- if they weren't effectively a private company, I doubt they'd be able to build the cars that they do.

Matt O.

Reply to
Matt O'Toole

Civic didn't come into it's own until 1988. The 1985 tended to rust away. However, lots of 1988 and earlyer on the road.

Pars

Somebody wrote:

Reply to
pars

Too bad you have to destroy any credibility you might have with obvious lies like this...

Reply to
dizzy

I'm with you so far.

The policy handbook is full of promises that are fulfilled. 40 hour work week, health benefits, 401K's, IRA matching funds etc. This statement is hyperbole and simply wrong. Employees get paid, even if the company goes broke. Shareholders lose their money if things go bad.

I just paid full retail for an irrigation project which is just big tinker toys. I had to get an estimate and less than one days work. The first worker missed 4 scheduled appointments in a row, because I wasn't his best "deal" that day. He didn't call, he just never showed up. The next worker missed the first appointment, made the second which he charged me $100 for an estimate that took 10 minutes. He missed the next appointment and finally did the job the fourth appointment. I scheduled 7 days to get less than one days work over a

6 week period. You should hear the howls of outrageous indignation if I keep a worker waiting 5 minutes while I drive 1 mile to my rental, if he shows up 4 hours late. Their time is money dammit. How dare I waste their time! There is a distribution of work ethic. A few have it, many don't.

He goes long. Touchdown!!!

Greed is the problem, not competence. The real conflict is between personal power and professional power. Supposedly managers use their power to enrich the company, in return they get a salary and benefits. In reality they use their power to enrich themselves. Power is wealth and wealth is power. Employees do this too, but managers have

10 times the discretionary power of employees. How many workers put lunch at the Hilton on their expense account? How many workers have an expense account? How many workers vote themselves 100,000 shares of stock options for a job well done? Isn't it amazing the number of elected officials that retire millionaires when they all complain about maintaining dual households on a meager salary? If politicians DIDN'T use their public power for personal advancement only bean counters would go into politics to keep the potholes filled and electricity on. Exploitation of professional power for personal gain is the reason for being a manager or politician. There are exceptions, I just insulted Bob in Minnesota :)

It's a popular conceit that managers can manage anything. They just hire technical expertise. In Europe mechanical engineer often spend time as machinists. An American mechanical engineer may not even know where the on/off switch is on a lathe. Guess who designs parts that can readily be made?

And then you'll hit 40.

Cheers, Roadie Roger

Reply to
Roadie Roger

What you "remember" is the Chevy Nova which at that time was simply a rebadged Corolla. The car did NOT have "many more problems" than Chevrolet's own crap economy cars of the period.

Reply to
Philip®

Elmo This kind of thing has been done. Daewoo Automotive built Mercedes Benz cars "under license" in factories in Poland under their own name. I saw these vehicles at a Daewoo training center in LA.. Many components of these vehicles were dido copies of Mercedes car components. Datson once built a almost exact copy of the MG for US sales in the 60's. Recently Chrysler sued GM because the Humvee had seven slots in the grill just like Jeep's have. The judge through it out because the Humvee was already in production. IBM not Apple let other companies copy their design legally. There are legalities and copy rights involved with any product. Mike

Reply to
Michael Simon

Randy Given wrote:.

Similar, it was identical! Called the Chevy Nova from 1986-1988. It was a Corolla!

Reply to
MDT Tech®

Are you talking about a Datsun 2000? I owned one of those just out of college and I don't think it was much of a copy of anything. It was a 2 seater ragtop, front engine RWD but beyond that had not much of anything in common with MG. In those days, MG's sort of had a reputation of needing someone to follow you down the road and pick up stuff that fell off. I recall thinking it was pretty quick with it's 2L 4 banger.... but then I had been driving an MG Midget prior to that, so most anything might seem fast. :-)

Reply to
gmccx

Why would you copy an inferior product?

Reply to
DTJ

You think you could find a manufacturer that *doesn't* have such a site set up by a disgruntled owner? Let us know ...

Thank you for your woefully uninformed opinion.

-- C.R. Krieger (Been there; drove that)

Reply to
C.R. Krieger

Hi Folks

Some time in the not too distant past there lived a man that went under the name of "HENRY FORD". So what? When Uncle Henry never graduated high School and actually left education around the 12 grade (I hope this is correct).

An the advent of WW2 and during a BIG newspaper (could be the NY Times or similar) defamed Uncle Henry as being illiterate and should not be in charge of a national company making vehicles and armament for the war effort.

Uncle Henry, apparently, sued for defamation of character (or something similar) and won.

His defence was, apparently, "Your Honour, I run a big company and I have a row of buttons on my desk and if I want to send a letter to someone I press one of these buttons and my secretary come in and I dictate a letter and she types it and sends it. If I want to know the financial state of my company I press another button and my accountant comes in and he will tell me everything I need or want to know about the finances. If I want to know about production I press another button and my chief engineer come in and we discuss these things and the same for design etc............"

There is no problem in hiring EXPERTS in their field to do the job they like doing. Take me for example (or not as some of you will), I am an engineer by nature - I like to know how things work from the simple "see-saw" to the most complicated engineering accomplishments - I have run my own business' but not as good as my "accountant" wife (wife #1) could have done but she wouldn't so it wasn't as "good as it could have been". Not to say we didn't have a good life style or the business' wasn't a success just "it could do better".

All my employees were my "friends" and I never took advantage and they helped when help was needed. Fair days pay for a fair days work.........

Unfortunately, things change when companies GROW. Less social interaction, them & us situations, manager that don't know shit etc.

That's the problem - no real communication. Japanese managers are on the shop floor and accessible US & UK managers are "GODS" or they think they are!

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

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Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Reply to
hsg

That's just proof that your experience is quite limited. How old are you?

This is the best reason to buy a Lexus, of course...

No, I won't believe such ridiculous nonsense. Yes, I've driven one.

Some people. Certainly not all people.

I'll never forget when I bought my 323, an acquaintance of mine said to me "I know why you bought that. Status." This, despite the fact that he knew that I was a car enthusist and had many times heard me and another buddy discuss the advantages of rear-wheel drive, etc.

Gee, do you think it's just possible that I bought it because I loved the way it drove, and that it was a perfect compact sedan for me and my small family?

I am continually amazed by the BMW mystique. People think anyone driving one must be wealthy, and are too dense to consider the fact that there's a ton of SUV's running-around that cost just as much as a

3-series. 'Course, they don't get a second look, since they're so common.

Well, if cheap is what you want, there's any number of bland transportation appliances for you to choose from.

Reply to
dizzy

I had an old rat diesel Golf (Rabbit). Whatta goof. It was a pretty decent car up till the end of it's life, when it did a Blues Brothers and disintegrated almost overnight. One thing, it had the most orthopedically correct seats I've ever experienced. Even though it was a rusted out hulk, I would come out after a hard day of work and get into that seat and my back would sigh in ecstasy.

nb

Reply to
notbob

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