Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

Nonsense. When Lexus entered the market with the LS400, it was in many ways, better than its direct rivals from Europe in performance, quality, engineering sophistication, and value. But competition being the nature of the game, BMW and MB has caught up in many QFD aspects. I think Lexus is sufficiently differentiated from Toyota that they deserve to be recognized as more than "just another Toyota." Certainly, that would be like calling Audi just another VW.

BMW/MB and Lexus go head-to-head in many categories that Lexus offers. Certainly, BMW, MB has many higher end vehicles, but they also have many LOWER end vehicles than the Lexus nameplate. According to industry standards, Lexus customer service is also a lot better.

What's your point? Lexii, like most high-end sporty vehicles are very capable high speed cruisers. All the engineering techniques used by BMW/MB are also available to Toyota.

built and do what it says on the box so do BMW, HONDA

Are you trying to imply that Lexii do not feel safe past 120 mph. I have extensive experience behind the wheels of MBs, BMWs and Lexii and I would beg to differ.

Chip

Reply to
Chip Stanley
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Actually it's the opposite. Lexus has pretty much stayed with the same formula as when they started out, which was to produce the ultra-refined, clinically-perfect, executive express. The ignorant usually believe that Lexus "copied" the European automakers. Actually, they created the perfect American luxury car, which was always the target consumer. If anything, all the other luxury automakers, BMW, MB, Jaguar, have homogenized their driving experience to become much more similar to the Lexus formula, which surprise, surprise is what the largest luxury car market in the world wants. Anyone with any experience behind the wheel of the older generation Euro automobiles cannot deny that they have lost much of the character and Teutonic edge that set them apart. They are now racing to out-Lexus, Lexus.

Chip

Reply to
Chip Stanley

Amen to that. I could drive for 18 hours in the '79 Rabbit Diesel and there was no sign of fatigue in my back. No other car has ever been even half that good. But it died an ignominious death. The timing belt snapped literally 8 miles from the dealer on the way to trading it in.

Reply to
E. Meyer

I violently disagree with the above. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Not that management couldn't do this on their own but Unions help management de-humanize workers into interchangeable production line machines. This permeates the organization so that upper level management treats lower levels as interchangeable modules to be used and discarded at whim. The net result is too much inertia for rapid improvement. Is much easier and faster to fire all the workers and build a new plant elsewhere.

Who knows? It may be all this inefficiency and inertia is what it takes to build an organization capable of mass producing cars. Nobody has been able to do it any other way yet.

Reply to
David Kelly

During those years (and later) they were built on the same lines at the NUMMI joint venture plant launched in 1984 between Toyota and GM.

Later they changed it from Nova to Prisim. The Prisim was still a Toyota Corolla.

The Nova of the 70's was a totally different, fully American car.

-Russ.

Reply to
Somebody

Absolutely. The German-built 70s and 80s VWs were great cars. They all had great seats. I had a '79 Rabbit Diesel too, and it was one of the best cars I ever owned. It might not have had much power, but it had that overall balance (like a BMW) that gave you the most of what it had. It had a simple suspension with no anti-roll bars, but perfect spring and shock rates. It rode and handled beautifully. I had a couple of 50k mile years in that car, driving all over the West on climbing trips.

These weren't the most reliable cars, but nothing was back then. By modern standards they were crap, but back then they were better than average.

Matt O.

Reply to
Matt O'Toole

This is probably going to be seen as "trolling" but here goes.

What did happen is that people used to driving N.A. cars just got in and drove them, like they do with "Big Three" cars, rather than following the $400/3mos "normal maintenance" schedule of the Toyota. More problems were reported because they were not corrected during "maintenance" as they were at the Toyota dealerships.

(oooo, that aught to stir the pot!) |>))

Dan

Reply to
Dan Gates

Good old ELMo stepped on his shagnasty this time... My 19 yr old e28, this years expenses:

2 relays and a new muffler, 19 bux and change for those bad boys...plus about $300 for the muffler which didn't include the $60 to install. talk about expensive...man I tell you, what's this world coming to eh? btw that was the original 19 year old muffler and relays. tell you what ELMO, I'll take your rice rocket on anytime anywhere with my 19 yr old POS BMW...
Reply to
Paul Schnettler

About 4 years after I bought the Prizm (1990 model), I stopped by the Chevrolet - Geo parts department to buy an antenna. I overheard a conversation between a salesman and a service writer that went "When you sell a Prizm, they never come back for service...." "But you sell a Cavalier and those people are back every couple of months."

Reply to
Philip®

do you ever think that since a civic is half or more less expensive than a BMW that may have some factor in the "ratio"

Reply to
Tha Ghee

Now we know you are a complete wanker.

What you are referring to is the "McPhearson" Strut. Designed by a production worker on the FORD of England production line in 1952 or there abouts and first used in the 107E side valve 1172cc monocoque bodies Prefect and Popular models and subsequently used on all the FORD (UK & D) production cars. Later licensed and used by most other car makers until the patent rights ran out and now everybody is using it.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

formatting link
Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Reply to
hsg

Most of this shit are cars that were over engineered. Now the real engineers have got at them and the bean counters and they are made to last a few years.

As an example the design life of the Austin Metro (fancy square mini derivative in UK) was 8 years and about 90% that survived accidents fell apart at that point and the other 9% lasted another 2 - 5 whilst the odd 1% left are still lurking in a garage or barn somewhere waiting to be discovered in 10 years time.....

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

formatting link
Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Reply to
hsg

Honda's top management including the CEO have had a racing background, it teaches the employees to work under pressure and as a team. I think even till this day thay have the same phil, each CEO and managers have to spend some time in there racing program.

Reply to
elmo

Perhaps intelligence is also being able to copy the information accurately. 8;)

"I also wrote speeches for Earle S. MacPherson, inventor of the MacPherson Strut front suspension, who was Ford VP-Engineering in those days."

-- Larry

Reply to
pltrgyst

There's more to it than that, top poster. Your decision to top-post means that you have decided not to have a discussion with me and respond to the points that I made. You just wanted to blather-away at the top.

Reply to
dizzy

I don't necessarily agree. There are many froums where it is customary to read a post, and frame the reply in a manner that covers the general theme all at one time instead of addressing each point as it is made. This sort of reply works best in a top-post format.

It is not right to force bottom posting "just because." Especially, if the errant top poster trims the rest of the original post so everybody doesn't have to scroll down pages and pages only to find that there is no further discussion taking place.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

You need to get examined by your doctor for alzhiemers.

Reply to
DTJ

Maybe not for much longer. The Wall St. Journal reported world-wide sales for major auto companies and Toyota was just a smidgen behind Ford and gaining rapidly.

Reply to
Gordon McGrew

(flame snipped)

Thanks for the correction; that name slipped my mind. Speaking of corrections, it's spelled "McPherson," I think. But you agree that the Chapman strut is what I describe above, right?

See the other post from pltrgyst for some other comments.

Reply to
Neil

What parallel universe are you from? The daily news is rife with stories of avarice, greed, and corruption in coporate America. Companies raiding retirement plans for capital, mismanagement of

401K's, firing/laying off workers with no advance notice, dropping group medical plans ...the list is endless. This is the country were the business ethic says its acceptable to shoot your employees, ferchrysakes! Sure, all those policies you listed were common in the properous 90's. That was because companies were so desperate for talent, they initiated a whole range of bennies to attract workers. Now that the sleigh ride is over, it's back to cutting the throat of the common worker.

The working class will always be expendable in the business equation. Let's lay off thousands of loyal, longtime, workers to ship production offshore so management can retain their bonuses. Let's lay off thousands of the most productive workers in the world and replace them with illegal immigrants so we can pay them chicken feed. Let's lay off thousands of older, experienced, workers and replace them with clueless 20-somethings so we can cut health insurance costs. Let's contribute millions to scumbag politicians to pass crippling workplace safety and worker's protection legislation. YOUR statement is wrong. The company, read upper management, will screw the employee in a hearbeat, and then pat themselves on the back at their good judgement.

nb

Reply to
notbob

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