Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the parts, etc.

If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because of patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.

Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car that drives exactly like one.

what do u guys think?

Reply to
elmo
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If you want a BMW why not just buy one?

Jack

Reply to
Jack G

The CAN make a copy of the 3 Series if they wanted to.

What you have to understand it that automakers design and build to a perceived customer and an expected set of demands that customer might have. They seem to think that a BMW customer is some sort of anamoly that has a unique set of demands, or something. They seem to think that what they are building has broader appeal in the market place. If they build a car like a BMW, and it appeals to 5% of the buyers, or they build a car like the Camry that appeals to 40%, which do you think they will build?

There are complexities that go along with the decision to build like BMW builds, but they seem to think that people will rather spend 22,000 and get close to what they really want than spend 32,000 to actually get it. Of course, now that you and I have a BMW in our garage, we appreciate the value of the extra 10 grand. ;-)

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

They could make one, but remember - BMWs are not really any more reliable than GMs. Good, but not great.

All that performance comes at a price, afterall. A bit lighter weight here, a bit higher revving engine there... Unless you want to get a Mercedes AMG model, and pay upwards of 50K, then you "settle" for a AMG lite(aka BMW for $15K less).

Reply to
Joseph Oberlander

They could make a very good BMW clone but to achieve a truly comparable car (suspension, electronics etc), their cost would be very close to that of a BMW.

Reply to
John

From: elmo ( snipped-for-privacy@vfd.com) Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW? This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota, rec.autos.makers.honda Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.

Best wishes,

Faisal A Sheikh

"elmo" wrote in message news:...

Reply to
FaisalCorollaS

Falling asleep through elmo's post...

Don't think they need to. They are trying to with that Lexus, but they make thier money with bread and butter cars like Corollas and the new trucks.

Reply to
Pahsons - Somnolent

But you are comparing a corolla and a 3er. What i'm saying is, when Lexus decided to build a "3 series killer" which is the IS and came short (based on opinion ofcourse) of making a car which is as fun to drive as the

3er...i'm sure Lexus engineers realized that the IS was no 3er killer when they had the prototype, it was a good alternative to it because of the cheaper price and higher reliability, but I'm sure that they were not focusing on building a car that is 2nd in the fun to drive category (the reason people buy BMWs) and first in quality and value. Why didn't they just do a mechanical copy of the 3er to start of with and then beat BMW by offering the car w/ a lower price and higher quality (which they can easily do w/ more efficient production)? And I don't buy the argument that BMW uses higher quality components Vs. Toyota, infact its quite the opposite. How many electrical problems do people exp. w/ Mercedes and BMW's Vs. Toyota, Im sure the problem rate w/ BMW components (mostly made by Bosch) is much higher then a toyota (mostly made by denso). Anyone making an argument that BMW employees a higher quality standard (including in production) compared to Lexus has to be smoking some real good shit.
Reply to
elmo

Because BMW reliability is not that great.

Reply to
Dan J.S.

Well, that's kind of what Nissan did with the Datsun 510...

Reply to
<Gmlyle

No, they copied the basic design. The geometry ain't even close, trust me...

Matt O.

Reply to
Matt O'Toole

I think the answers pretty much summarize it. To borrow a phrase from the 19th century Robber Baron era, Toyota (and GM and BMW too) is not in business to make cars-- it's in business to make money. It just happens to make money by making cars.

I suspect that the engineers knew exactly what they were doing when they designed the IS. I test drove a 330 and an IS and gave my decision a lot of thought. I'm no racer-boy, but my limited driving impression was that the IS was actually hotter than the 3-series. By my subjective judgement it seemed able to pull more Gs, its ride was more taught (read stiff), and there was less body lean. I couldn't compare raw acceleration since I drove an auto Lexus and a manual BMW, but they seemed pretty close.

On the other hand, the BMW definitely was a more sophisticated car. It's rear seat, while by no means roomy, was a bit roomier than the IS, as was its trunk. Its lines were more elegant while maintaining a dashing appearance, the interior materials were of higher quality, the exterior colors were something aimed at an adult as opposed to a

16-year old moving up from a "pocket rocket", and the "little things" were better-- an example would be the gas struts in the hood and trunk instead of a prop-rod and gooseneck hinges.

I thought about the choice a lot and in the end decided that while the BMW was probably a little nicer car, when all was said and done it would cost $5-6000 more than a comparably equipped IS, and it wouldn't be as reliable to boot. I could afford to cough up $40k for a 330, but the car just wasn't worth it. The car seemed grossly overpriced. Combine the substantial extra money for the Bimmer with the legendary Toyota/Lexus reliability and on balance the choice turned out to be a no-brainer for me. I bought the IS and haven't thought twice about it since.

My guess is that the Toyota engineers knew that, and I was exactly the customer they were looking for.

Back in the early 1980s, before Lexus, Acura and Infiniti started nipping on their heels, someone once asked a representative of Mercedes what they thought of the Japanese cars. Merc could afford to be honest, since they didn't yet perceive Japan, Inc to be a threat, so they said something like "for us, cost isn't that much of an object, but we never cease to be amazed at how they manage to build cars with the quality and features they do while selling them for that price."

That about sums it up-- Japan Inc builds their customer base by being a lot more reliable, just about as good, and substantially less expensive. Why should they throw all that out in pursuit of the last

1%??

That said, I do th> I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets

Reply to
Mark Klebanoff

I had one 30 years ago. You're right-- it was known as the "Poor Man's BMW"

Reply to
Mark Klebanoff

I doubt that this is true. Some Japanese cars are great looking - even beautiful. The 3rd Gen RX-7 is one of the best looking modern sports cars to my eyes. The current Miata reminds me a lot of a scaled down version of the Jag XK8 and I also like the RX-8 a lot in person.

As for looks - when was the last time a BMW was beautiful? Some of them were good looking, but beautiful? Maybe the 507, 70's CS (was that the E9?) and pre-WW2 328. Everything since has been somewhere between respectable and good looking in a muted kind of way (E34) to caricatures and "flame surfacing".

On the other hand - with the possible exception of some English cars, it seems like the Italians just have a special ability to capture the true beauty form of the automobile. (Did you see the new Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione?)

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Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

totally agreed, my opinion is that the look and appeal of the IS300 is terribly immature and juvenile compared with the BMW line. I bought the ES300 because my wife thought the IS300 was atrocious looking. In theory, that's the class of car for me, but Lexus dumbed it down too much.

Reply to
Steve Larson

One problem with your "logic" is you're assuming that if Honda or Toyota made the *exact* same car as BMW, it would be at a "lower" cost and of "higher" quality. That's not necessarily true. BMW are more expensive to maintain. But, there's a reason. BMW service requirements are more exacting and specified than Honda or Toyota. For example, BMW requires things like coolant and brake fluid flushes every 2 years (more if you track the car), tranny and differential fluid changes every 30,000 miles. Neither Honda or Toyota does this. Result - BMW will be more expensive to maintain, even if you DIY. However,these requirements are just one more reason why BMWs perform better. BMW also does things like have fluid-filled bushings like the 750i control arm bushings. BMW does this for a reason to provide more dampening in the suspension. Never seen a Honda or Toyota do that. Again, it ends up costing more. Don't get me wrong, Honda and Toyota make fantastic cars. But if they copied a BMW *exactly* I doubt there would be much of a price or quality difference....

Reply to
bfd

I have sat inside a 6 speed manual transmission IS 300 and to be honest with you, I would prefer it over a BMW 3 series any day. Apart from the prestige point of BMW, the IS 300 has the greatest interior I have ever seen. I would know that with a Lexus, I would be getting the Toyota reliability and all the luxury and quality that I could imagine in a luxury car since it is all that and more. The car was so powerful that when the Toyota Sales guy floored it, I almost had a heart failure. Believe me, it is that fast. I know now how people perceive cars. They perceive it as a commodity to inflate their egos while everyone else drools at the car as you pass by. That is where the IS

300 falls behind. When a Lexus passes by, people would say "yeah it is a Lexus, great car, but not that hot a car". When they see a label of BMW pasted on any car, they go "holy smokes!!!! it is a BMW, this is the coolest car on the block". Even if the car is technologically heaps of trash. The name BMW will do the trick. It is no secret anymore that 5-7 years down the road, Japanese cars fair better than German cars in terms of reliability and cost of maintenance and service. That is so unfortunate. sigh!

Best Regards,

Reply to
FaisalCorollaS

Design compromises, cost compromises, thinking they can do it better, knowing they'l have to price it for less than a BMW, etc etc. All sorts of reasons they don't make an "exact copy".

Again, who says they want to? Maybe the entire point is to seek a niche that's close-to but different-from BMW.

Reply to
dizzy

Design copywrites?

Recall the early Toyota Landcruiser? Copy of 250 Chevrolet 6.

Reply to
Philip®

Really? I understand Merceds is "gluing" body components instead of welding so ... what does BMW do different from Toyota?

If you clone then you do not have the R&D costs.

Reply to
Philip®

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