Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to
car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the parts, etc.
If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because of patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car that drives exactly like one.
what do u guys think?
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If you want a BMW why not just buy one?
Jack

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Because BMW reliability is not that great.
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Not to mention the price tag $$$
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Which was the point of my post - a car built to BMW specifications - and in the quantities supported by a "BMW market" would cost the same as a BMW.
Jack

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The CAN make a copy of the 3 Series if they wanted to.
What you have to understand it that automakers design and build to a perceived customer and an expected set of demands that customer might have. They seem to think that a BMW customer is some sort of anamoly that has a unique set of demands, or something. They seem to think that what they are building has broader appeal in the market place. If they build a car like a BMW, and it appeals to 5% of the buyers, or they build a car like the Camry that appeals to 40%, which do you think they will build?
There are complexities that go along with the decision to build like BMW builds, but they seem to think that people will rather spend 22,000 and get close to what they really want than spend 32,000 to actually get it. Of course, now that you and I have a BMW in our garage, we appreciate the value of the extra 10 grand. ;-)

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They could make one, but remember - BMWs are not really any more reliable than GMs. Good, but not great.
All that performance comes at a price, afterall. A bit lighter weight here, a bit higher revving engine there... Unless you want to get a Mercedes AMG model, and pay upwards of 50K, then you "settle" for a AMG lite(aka BMW for $15K less).
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They could make a very good BMW clone but to achieve a truly comparable car (suspension, electronics etc), their cost would be very close to that of a BMW.

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From: elmo ( snipped-for-privacy@vfd.com) Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW? This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota, rec.autos.makers.honda Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.
Best wishes,
Faisal A Sheikh

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But you are comparing a corolla and a 3er. What i'm saying is, when Lexus decided to build a "3 series killer" which is the IS and came short (based on opinion ofcourse) of making a car which is as fun to drive as the 3er...i'm sure Lexus engineers realized that the IS was no 3er killer when they had the prototype, it was a good alternative to it because of the cheaper price and higher reliability, but I'm sure that they were not focusing on building a car that is 2nd in the fun to drive category (the reason people buy BMWs) and first in quality and value. Why didn't they just do a mechanical copy of the 3er to start of with and then beat BMW by offering the car w/ a lower price and higher quality (which they can easily do w/ more efficient production)? And I don't buy the argument that BMW uses higher quality components Vs. Toyota, infact its quite the opposite. How many electrical problems do people exp. w/ Mercedes and BMW's Vs. Toyota, Im sure the problem rate w/ BMW components (mostly made by Bosch) is much higher then a toyota (mostly made by denso). Anyone making an argument that BMW employees a higher quality standard (including in production) compared to Lexus has to be smoking some real good shit.
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easily
is
argument
One problem with your "logic" is you're assuming that if Honda or Toyota made the *exact* same car as BMW, it would be at a "lower" cost and of "higher" quality. That's not necessarily true. BMW are more expensive to maintain. But, there's a reason. BMW service requirements are more exacting and specified than Honda or Toyota. For example, BMW requires things like coolant and brake fluid flushes every 2 years (more if you track the car), tranny and differential fluid changes every 30,000 miles. Neither Honda or Toyota does this. Result - BMW will be more expensive to maintain, even if you DIY. However,these requirements are just one more reason why BMWs perform better. BMW also does things like have fluid-filled bushings like the 750i control arm bushings. BMW does this for a reason to provide more dampening in the suspension. Never seen a Honda or Toyota do that. Again, it ends up costing more. Don't get me wrong, Honda and Toyota make fantastic cars. But if they copied a BMW *exactly* I doubt there would be much of a price or quality difference....
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I have sat inside a 6 speed manual transmission IS 300 and to be honest with you, I would prefer it over a BMW 3 series any day. Apart from the prestige point of BMW, the IS 300 has the greatest interior I have ever seen. I would know that with a Lexus, I would be getting the Toyota reliability and all the luxury and quality that I could imagine in a luxury car since it is all that and more. The car was so powerful that when the Toyota Sales guy floored it, I almost had a heart failure. Believe me, it is that fast. I know now how people perceive cars. They perceive it as a commodity to inflate their egos while everyone else drools at the car as you pass by. That is where the IS 300 falls behind. When a Lexus passes by, people would say "yeah it is a Lexus, great car, but not that hot a car". When they see a label of BMW pasted on any car, they go "holy smokes!!!! it is a BMW, this is the coolest car on the block". Even if the car is technologically heaps of trash. The name BMW will do the trick. It is no secret anymore that 5-7 years down the road, Japanese cars fair better than German cars in terms of reliability and cost of maintenance and service. That is so unfortunate. sigh!
Best Regards,

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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (FaisalCorollaS) wrote in message

The other day, I sat in a Dodge SRT4 (look it up; it's a seriously hotted-up Neon, but Dodge doesn't badge it as such). It felt *great* sitting still. Like showroom stock race cars I've driven. Then, I arranged for a ride ...

A lot like that, only he wasn't driving; I was. It has a suspension more tuned than the racing Neon ACRs and more than some stock class race cars I've driven. It has about 65 more horsepower run through a turbo and a cat, but *no* mufflers. It has a helluva lot better shifter (the brightest spot). It screams and it sticks (autocross gumball Goodriches on those 17-inch wheels) and reminds me of nothing so much as an old 5-liter Mustang. That is, 'crude but effective'. My wife was starting to get motion sickness from a 5-mile ride even though I was trying to 'pussyfoot' the thing to mask its nature - and this is a woman who's ridden the right seat with me in an Alfa 155 down the Amalfi Drive (a 4-hour autocross course!) without losing her lunch. It was insufferably loud, especially in the back seat. So I'm not gettin' one. But it was an enlightening experience, considering that she's driving a Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Sport 5-speed that can do nearly everything the Dodge could do with an almost infinite amount *more* refinement. I was reminded why I've been driving BMWs and Audis ever since I got out of Toyotas into a 2002 some 20 years ago. While my '87 FX-16 was a lotta fun, it still lacked 'something' that the BMWs (at least up through the E28/E30) all have - an unquantifiable 'character'.

Actually, I've found that if you want to buy ego inflation, a Jaguar does it a helluva lot better - and cheaper - than a BMW. It's crazy how impressed average people are with our 'entry-level' X-Type (Yeah; it really *is* just a *very nice* AWD Ford Mondeo/Contour.) compared to *any* BMW I've ever had. It still comes down to your essential (but slightly corrected) conclusion: "Oh; nice Lexus." "That BMW is the *second* coolest car on the block!" "Look! There's a red *Jag*!!" ;^) -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)
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Hey, don't say *just* a Mondeo/Contour -- they're great driving cars. Excellent dynamic capabilities, but zero cachet... to think they sold for less than a Jetta! They're really cheap now, and have really low insurance rates -- nobody wants them! A great stealth freeway fighter and inner city neighborhood survivor for LA... The LX Sport with the firm suspension is almost as good as the SVT, but looks like a rental car...
And you're right about Jags...
Matt O.
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That's my point. Compared to being a 'Jag-you-are', it's 'just' a Ford. But you're also correct. The basic car is an excellent one, especially in its price range. I've been very tempted by the SVTs.

If only they weren't all FWD, I'd be in one in a nanosecond. But this is Wisconsin and I live 25 miles from Road America ...

Sometimes I wish I weren't. It's almost embarassing. -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)
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You've aptly discribed the SRT4's character. Just because something's cheap, doesn't mean that it doesn't have character.
BTW, You might have better lock 'pussyfooting' the wife around in a WRX.
Pars
"C.R. Krieger" wrote:

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You are talking about low-intelligence or higher intelligence, but ignorant type of people.
A friend of mine from Germany laughs at us over here when we drool over a Porsche. Don't get me wrong, I am a little moved by them as well, but the point is that she claimed that Porsches in Germany were like GM's over here; very affordable and found everywhere.
The high-end BMW's I am impressed with, but that follows suit for most high end cars of any manufacturer. The BMW 3-series is just a garden variety car to me, or actually worse...a garden variety car that is a PITA to own as it is expensive, expensive to maintain, and has little of a return in owner satisfaction for that type of expense.
Unless I give a flip about what others think...which I don't. :-)
Regards
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Porsches to Germans are like Monte Carlos to us. They rather have Italian or BMW. I have a friend Heintz who lives around the corner from me He is a 70 year old consultant to a German manufacturer. He goes to Germany once a year. His take on America's so called love affair with Porches? The uninformed and idiot Blondes who can barely pronounce the name are privvy to the car. You meet a blonde say you have a Porsche and she bends over backwards,....or forwards. I like to say I have a Porsche even though I own two BMW's. A front Porsche and a back Porsche. Come on over and sit and chat.
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Not sure why I'm bothering with this troll, but, what the hell. 8)
On 10 Sep 2003 17:55:06 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (FaisalCorollaS) wrote:

That's just proof that your experience is quite limited. How old are you?

This is the best reason to buy a Lexus, of course...

No, I won't believe such ridiculous nonsense. Yes, I've driven one.

Some people. Certainly not all people.
I'll never forget when I bought my 323, an acquaintance of mine said to me "I know why you bought that. Status." This, despite the fact that he knew that I was a car enthusist and had many times heard me and another buddy discuss the advantages of rear-wheel drive, etc.
Gee, do you think it's just possible that I bought it because I loved the way it drove, and that it was a perfect compact sedan for me and my small family?

I am continually amazed by the BMW mystique. People think anyone driving one must be wealthy, and are too dense to consider the fact that there's a ton of SUV's running-around that cost just as much as a 3-series. 'Course, they don't get a second look, since they're so common.

Well, if cheap is what you want, there's any number of bland transportation appliances for you to choose from.
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I'm top posting here because if you want to read the rest you can scroll down.
Well faisa lAjmal Sheikh - why no capital for your first name? -
Your argument is slightly flawed as has been proven. But I must agree on some points although you will probably not have thought about it this way.
The LEXUS is a comfortable car, travels along the road quite nicely and carries people in a "safe" way. It will travel at 70mph all day and probably never miss a beat. It looks - well - nice/terrible depending on your view but it works as it was designed to.
Being a match for the BMW, a Mercedes, Cadillac?, Volvo?, SAAB, RR? is something else. Whether or not you love or hate "imports" the LEXUS is not in competition whatever you might think. There is no competition because a BMW or a Mercedes is just that and a LEXUS is just another TOYOTA.
BMW models are all stamped BMW as are Mercedes. (Well some BMW models are now being labeled Rolls Royce but that's a different story as is the VW - Bentley) Mercedes are being re badged Chrysler - well some of the floorpans and running gear is and viz-a-viz but the LEXUS is just another TOYOTA with bells and whistles.
You must remember that, in general, there are speed limits in the US and the UK and most other parts of the world (I know there are exceptions but not many) and all the cars travel quite nicely at 70mph and some at 80mph although most modern cars will surpass the 100mph mark and quite a few this side of the Atlantic UK + Europe will pass the 120mph mark with ease. Above this speed there are a few cars that actually feel safe let alone be SAFE. The Ford Mondeo SST is safe to about 140mph my BMW 740i is too at 155mph. The Aston Martin (Ford) will hit 180 with ease as will many other cars. The Jaguar, McLaren, Lamborghini, Ferrari companies have cars that will clock over 200mph with ease and safely but with a drive trained and experienced at that speed but definitely not in downtown LA, London, Paris etc. as most owners would have you believe.
All the fast cars I have seen in the US are driven slowly - because the owner want's you to get a good look at him/her (posing) and their wealth, good looks, style or whatever. Even the Corvette driver goes slow (70 or under and at the posted limits) so you can have a good look at their taste/style etc.
Experts and lovers of fine machinery will try to drive around in just that. Fine machinery! Of course machinery wears out and breaks down - some sooner than others - but don't mistake style for excellent engineering.
The TOYOTA cars are well built and do what it says on the box so do BMW, HONDA and the others just that some do it better.
Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!
Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk http://www.bognor-bill.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK
------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ -------------------------------------------------
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