Brake for Rover 218SD

As a DIY job for someone with no expertise and, I'm assuming, no appropriate tools or facilities, it's best avoided.

£110 + £20 is very cheap, much of that price will be the cost of the parts so there wouldn't be much saving even if you did do it yourself. Get your local mechanic to do it and save a lot of heartache.

I'd get him to check them first anyway, the national centres are well renowned for 'finding' jobs to do.

FWIW, Nationwide are damned expensive for what amounts to non-genuine parts being fitted. I could almost do you that job at our main dealer for that price - on a Honda too. Indeed, check the Rover dealer too, you can't always assume the dealer is going to be more expensive. We certainly have a policy of trying to price match, but it's more often than not now that we don't need to when comparing to the likes of Halfords and Kwik-Fit anyway.

Our local Halfords quoted £7 more to fit brake pads than us, and Kwik-Fit wanted £48 more to fit a Bridgestone to a Civic Type R.

He's absolutely right - but a main dealer will still be more than £110.

Indeed they will, but you need to understand what kind of value you are getting.

IME there is no such thing as a free lunch, and cheaper repairs are often just that, especially with jobs such as this where the majority of the saving is in the parts cost. You can only be buying inferior parts at that kind of price difference. I have often seen good quality pattern parts being only a little cheaper, or even sometimes more expensive, than genuine parts.

If you're getting brakes repaired for less than half the price I would certainly question the quality fo the parts being used.

The most you could save on the labour would be about £35 - unless the labour is really cheap.

Hmm. What do you make of a main dealer - BMW - charging over 12 quid a litre for bulk oil? And then 110+ quid an hour for labour?

I know I saved over 500 quid by changing the disks and pads myself - using OEM quality from Eurocarparts. Took less than a day including getting the bits.

One way or another, garage prices are outrageous.

Have you seen the latest Which report on garage servicing? Still as poor as ever.

Yup, and I can name an Alfa dealer that was doing that 4 years ago.

Yes, or the workmanship is crap, but not everywhere.

No, I don't subscribe to Which, I have read some of them and found them to be lacking in any kind of accuracy.

However, I do appreciate that the trade as a whole does not have a good reputation, but IME, it's no worse than any other trade. It would be my guess that there are far more cowboys in the building trade for example.

You certainly cannot assume that all main dealers will rip you off either. I can assure you that when you come into mine we will always try to be competitive on price. Indeed we have an attitute that might surprise you. We will do a job for minimal profit, the theory being that minimal profit is better than none at all. Of course it would be commercial suicide to not try to maximise your profits though. You have to offer a service that gives the customer a sense of value.

For sure a small independent is not going to have anything like the overheads that a main dealer is. For a start a main dealer has to meet minimum standards set by the manufacturer, as well as cover the costs of a larger site. This has been made worse by the block exemption rules now in force.

In some ways it's the customers that are to blame, they want cheaper cars and more freedom to purchase, but in doing so they have made it more expensive for all suppliers, and inevitably will increase the costs to the dealer. This has to be met from somewhere.

Indeed, there is nothing stopping an independent becoming an authorised agent for a maufacturer, but they have to meet the minimum standards.

All I'm saying is that there are some dealers that are genuinely attempting to give a good and value service, so don't go jumping down my throat when I suggest trying them.

I have to add that I have worked in a number of dealerships and franchises, and have not seen the general bad service you all spout on about. Indeed I see many of the dealers trying to put right what incompetent DIY'ers and independents have done. There have been bad mechanics and bad managers, but no blatant intent to rip off the punters.

Mind you, I have my own standards of work, and I wouldn't take a job where I thought such working practices were being used - I have turned down a few job offers like this.

True,

I believe Vauxhall realised that many folk were buying aftermarket parts like disks and pads and not theirs, so reduced them to the same or lower price! Makes you wonder why they couldn't do that in the first place?

My Niece was quoted 250 for front disks and pads at a quick fit type place .. I did them for her in a morning (and oil, filter and air filter) and the (genuine) parts (inc new pins, clips etc) came to 50 quid (trade) ;-)

I'm glad the job was done by me .. we own the car now!

All the best ..

T i m

p.s To the OP. Brakes aren't a good place to start diy wrenching .. ;-)

Strange the way those who don't subscribe to it always seem to say this. Perhaps it would be a good idea to read the article in full first. And even if they had been 'inaccurate' in some way, it makes absolutely no difference to the pattern established over the years they've been doing the same sort of checks.

There may well be in terms of one man traders, or small firms, but the big names? Nothing would stay up for more than a week if they were to the same standard...

I hope your place really is as good, and that you prosper, then. It should be easy given the appalling standard. Now if only you dealt in BMW...

I can see that, but grossing up on parts while still charging a king's ransom in labour is really taking the p**s.

No excuse for the dishonesty and shoddy work that is my main complaint, though. Price is one thing, but you'd at least expect a reasonable standard of work.

I'll bet there's some cosy little arrangement to stop competition within an area.

Ok - but I've yet to find one.

The Which owners survey certainly highlighted the differences in owner's opinions of their dealers - some makes came out very much better than others. And broadly about the same as you read here, etc.

I really can't think I'm one in a thousand. Every time I have a service done, something major is missed - but charged for. And this with three different dealers in as many years. Oh - and my only checking or noticing the obvious things - I can hardly be expected to have the oil etc analysed to see if they really have changed it.

Good for you. If only more were like you.

You'll find that the cheaper parts they supply are also of inferior quality, Ford do the same thing too.

Yes, that's my point.

Good point.

Actually I did subscribe, and had every intention of keeping up the subscription. I took up one of their free trial offers, and in the three issues I got, I found so many discrepancies and bits of poor advice that I cancelled it.

Erm. I've certainly seen some of the new houses that have been built in the last few years, and they are not built to any great standard.

No thanks.

I can guarantee that we don't gross up parts as much as your beloved independents do.

Absolutely. I wasn't suggesting that shoddy work was acceptable, I was simply offering a reason for the rising prices.

There isn't.

Right, so the real opinions of the customers is about their product not the dealer. This is one of the biggest problems I see with any survey, the customers experience of the product is often reflected in their opinion of the dealers, although the dealers may not actually be any different.

I have so often asked customers why they marked us down on their survey, and so often it has been simply because their expectations of the product were not met.

I haven't worked anywhere in 24 years where they charged for fitting parts that weren't fitted. But then I normally work at dealers that have been long established and work on reputation.

There are more than you have obviously found. In all the garages I have worked the poor workers are normally discovered and dealt with. The company I work for now actively seek such skills.

Strangely enough I could almost have typed your reply for you.

Not so at all. Various features of the cars and dealers were marked separately. And what was even more telling was whether they'd recommend the car to a friend.

Couple of years back, Jaguar got all uppity over Which members 'headline' reports of poorer than average reliability. They blustered on about small samples - although 60 odd will still give a trend. But if they'd read the full article, they'd have discovered that the Jag Owners questioned were much more happy with their cars than the owners of some other more reliable makes - and would happily recommend them to their friends.

The message from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

My problem with Which is that their ideas are biased towards their rather middle class (generally) readership. They rarely test the goods I'm interested in, and their comments on reliability are of little use to me as I'm likely to be maintaining things myself. I've not looked for a while, but you don't see useful things like "How easy it is to change the belt and brushes" on a washing machine review.

Practical Classics have a more - er - practical view. If they review MIG welders they'll tell you how much a spare liner is and the chances are someone will have taken it apart to see how well made it is.

It's not aimed at the enthusiast. Of course I read the reviews of things I'm really interested in, and may take note of them, but don't treat it as gospel. An enthusiast has totally different parameters than the 'average' person, and may be expected to read the specialised press. But with things like cameras, cars and hi-fi etc, enthusiasts never agree with which is 'best' so how could Which possibly satisfy all of them?

But for things I just want to work well, last well, and be good value for money - washing machines, vacuum cleaners etc I'll invariably choose their best buy. And never once been disappointed.

Funny thing is I bought my SIP on their recommendation, and plenty others have said it's crap. The speed control certainly is. And the 'regulator'.

Er, yes, that's the point I'm making. What I'm saying is that the product experience does relate to how the customer feels about the dealers, which is what we're talking about here.

Not one of your three paragraphs above mention anything about dealer satisfaction. In all the cases of poor reliability of the product, how were the dealers marked?

IME the quality of the product can often reflect in the experience you get at the dealer. If you're dealing with a crap product from the start, there's not a lot a dealer can do to fix that.

Is this is a case of fix the cause, not the symptom? It's certainly somethign I have come to believe having worked for varying qualities of product.

In the Jaguar case, fairly satisfied IIRC. Had to be for someone to recommend a car to a friend, if you think about it.

Well, I'm overall pretty satisfied with my BMW - not to say it's been perfect reliability wise, but OK. But all three dealers I've used have been rubbish. And expensive. Nor can I believe it's just me.

I'd have recommended a Clarke. :-) I have a 100E at home, and use a 120E at work. Baically both the same machine apart from the output. The speed controls work well, apart from being a little too sensitive. The regulator AFAIK, is the same as that supplied with many of the 'home' welders. Works OK though. Mike.

Actually I misread that bit, apologies.

Indeed, and that's not the first I've heard that from BMW dealers/products either.