Toyota Aygo- Opinions?

Had one (18 plate I think) as a courtesy car. Quite loud and rattly. That one had a semi-auto gearbox (ie a computer controlling a conventional clutch) which meant you essentially had to drive it as a manual with the paddle shifters else it would always be changing gear just when you wanted power.

Getting the Yaris Hybrid back was a relief.

It's the same platform as a Peugeot 108, and I think that means it's on a different parts/etc system to most Toyotas.

Theo

If it changes gear by itself, it's an auto. Lots of varieties of those, though.

But what you describe is very odd for any auto. Even early ones. Long before computers.

I drove one as a courtesy car. Toyota call it MMT. It is, as Dave says, to all intents and purposes an auto, but it is, without doubt, the worst I have ever driven.

TLDR: Jerky at low speed, noisy at high, gutless. Theo's comments are pretty accurate IME.

I'd imagine a manual one would be OK.

If it is a robotised manual (ie, with a conventional but auto clutch) the losses in that transmission will be no greater than a manual. So basically, a pretty crappy car? ;-)

That type of box which does work well has basically two layshafts with alternate gears on them. And a clutch for each one. So a normal shift - ie say 2nd to 3rd - just involves disengaging one clutch while engaging the other. And can be smooth as silk. This doesn't suit some who have this on a high performance car, as they prefer a snatchy change. ;-)

We are only looking at Manuals.

While I'm not snobby re-autos, I just prefer manuals. Our Outlander has good auto system but that is the only one I really like.

Our Smart Car is an Auto with a manual function but we rarely need to use Manual. I only recall needing to use it a few times on serious hills in France.

I'd quite like a little hybrid but as the main use is when we are travelling and campsites simply don't have the facilities to charge them (at least in Europe- available current on pitches can be a little as 6A compared with 16A in the UK, so charging would be an issue.

Fingers crossed, that wouldn't be an issue for a new(ish) car as only service parts should be needed.

It is a robotised manual. The manual and auto boxes are essentially the same, then they bolt some electronics on.

It wasn't so much the losses under power- this is, after all, a economy city car; it was the poor control and ponderous changes compared to...

Yes, that's what I am used to. I've had a Leon with VAG's wet-clutch DSG, currently drive a Scirocco withthe same box, and my OH has just had an Ibiza with the dry-clutch 7-speed variant. Instant changes, and smooth behaviour under nearly all circumstances. If ypu put the Scirocco into Sport and floor it, it will snatch the changes a bit more.

Perhaps they have deliberately used poor software to make their next model up seem better?

Mine is a 7 speed. Compared to a conventional torque converter auto, it's not quite as silky when moving off from rest or creeping in heavy traffic. And not quite so easy to maneuver when parking etc. But other than that, near perfect.

I'm told Honda make a version which uses a torque converter. Just for moving off, etc.

I think it's a limitation of cheaply made robotised manual gearboxes. As you say:

[snip]

in A dual-clutch box, but the MMT has to disgengage the clutch, shift the cogs, and re-engage the clutch, and this feels like a very long process when you pull out onto a steep hill and run out of revs in 1st :-) [snip]

Yes, that mirrors my experience.

True - but no slower than a manual box and clutch? But the single clutch ones I've driven were all pretty clunky.

It feels positively glacial!

Hybrids don't need charging. Plugin hybrids (PHEV) can be charged and run electric-only, and once they run out of battery they use petrol. These are usually larger cars (space for ICE and many kWh battery).

Regular hybrids (what Toyota marketing calls 'self-charging hybrids') just use the battery as a reservoir to capture energy when braking, and to provide extra power when accelerating - more efficient and can be a bit nippier when engine and motor work together (PHEV also do this). Batteries tend to be tiny - 900Wh (~9 laptops) for the Yaris Hybrid - because you aren't going to run it in EV mode for long distances.

I think the Yaris is as small as they come though, which might be too big for you, I don't know.

Theo

It's a phase they went through:

Honda Jazz I-Shift 2008-2011 Honda Civic I-Shift 2006-2012 Honda CR-V I-shift 2006-2012 Toyota Yaris MMT 2005-2011 Toyota Aygo MMT 2005- Toyota Corolla MMT 2004-2009 Toyota Auris MMT 2007-2013

I don't know if anything beyond the Aygo is still shipping with it.

Theo

It's an automated manual transmission. Quite a few manufacturers have sold them including Vauxhall, where it is called Easytronic.

It's effectively a manual car with a conventional clutch but clutch activation and gear changes are controlled by servo motors and a dedicated ECU.

They tend to be very lurchy unless you second guess when the upchange it about to occur and ease off the throttle while the change happens.

On the plus side, there are no torque converter losses so ultimate fuel economy is better, though this might be a side-effect of being forced to drive more carefully anyway.

A more serious issue if the metal is so thin that any sort of accident damage is difficult to repair using convetional panel-bashing and filler (according to my ex MOT tester neighbour)

It's termed a 'throw-away' car in the trade.

Throw it away after about 7 years .....

CAT thieves like them :-(

Indeed.

Sound like a bit more computer control is needed. Not difficult these days to cut the power just before the gearchange and restore it afterwards. Same as a decent driver does with a manual.

It would seem in practice you have to go to a twin layshaft design. Obviously more expensive to make. They can give seamless changes. While retaining the efficiency.