Advantages v disadvantages of a diesel!!!

You don't need to ask him to do that, he's been doing it throughout the thread.

so translates to:

1) more economy 2) drive underwater - caveat emptor - snorkel required, engine still needs air 3) Allows you to avoid tax. Not a bad thing, but you can get jailed for that....

Of course you can declare and pay duty on your biodiesel, and it's still cheaper, but that's not what you inferred...

Purely because you refuse to acknowledge any points I make, choosing to mock them instead.

I know what I like, and why I like it.

I'm not going to repeat the reasons any more, other than this:

1. Diesels are, in general, more economical than the petrol equivalent - this much you agree on. What you apparently don't be able to grasp, is you have to adopt your driving style, to get the best progress out of either - "It only revs to 4.5k therefore it must be shit, cos when I floor it through the gears, it feels very flat".

1. In my experiences over the last few years of driving cars 50 to 60k a year, and with a lot of these miles being driven stop start in urban areas, thus not 'motorway mileage', I've found diesels no less reliable than their petrol equivalents overall.

You claim otherwise. I can't go by anything else other than my own experiences, especially in the face of someone claiming thus when they have already stated they rarely use diesels in any other sense than a s**te old van.

Get it into your thick skull once and for all, I've actually bothered to drive both types for thousands of miles a year, and thus even if they don't tally with your own ideals, I've come to my conclusions through a reasonable amount of experience, which you can continue to mock if you must.

1. I've found that overall, for the size of car I tend to use, i.e: small to medium sized ones, diesels are more relaxing to live with, when doing a lot of town work, due to the smoother pull away they offer (remember, I'm not talking big cars, I'm talking small to medium ones), and no more noisy on a run than the petrol equivalent.

They may well use more soundproofing (didn't seem that way on my Golf TDIs), but so what - they're not overly loud on the outside either compared to other *small to medium* cars that happen to be petrol powered.

1. I've regularly, by driving sensibly, managed to achieve or even better the manufacturers MPG figures, with some of the better TDs I've had, whereas I've tried to do the same in the petrol powered equivalents, and bar one or two exceptions, have failed.

So to summarise, for the purposes of my 'daily drive', as in a small to medium sized car (because I really don't see the point in wasting the extra money needed to run a bigger car, when I don't actually need one, especially as I don't find them particularly bad to drive), diesels suit the need overall, slightly better than most petrols... and I speak as someone currently running a 2 litre petrol shed, that he happens to be quite fond of.

Some of the older stuff, was truly horrid, but things moved on even as early as the 1990s in terms of how much shit they throw out the back, how much noise they make, and how they perform overall. You don't apprently like the way they perform, others do - get over it.

No doubt, you will come back with more mocking and not acknowledge anything I've said other than the point on economy, just as you have right the way through this thread... all I've done is paint the picture how I've found it, through experience, with regards to diesels.

Dammit - I don't want to adopt Burgerman's driving style - I can't be doing with hand controls and driving a van.

Scientific theory can be massaged to prove whatever you want it to prove.

Quite often, though, the real-world evidence will prove that scientific theories are just what they say they are 'theories'.

It'll happen. For a large touring bike a derv lump would make a lot of sense.

We're not talking about supercars here, we're talking about your ordinary everyday car for your ordinary driver.

See above.

You've not been to Germany for a while, have you?

It's not within the rules.

See point b.

50cc diesels would be s**te.

However, I'm sure you'll take all this crap back when a diesel wins Le Mans. Which one will, *very* soon.

I'm not even a big fan of diesels, but your prejudice against them is quite astonishing.

Which one? The Audi derived 2.5 TD I5, or their own design D5 that's been used more recently?

Thing is, though, that unless I was purely driven by fuel economy, in the Volvo line up, you have the choice between the D5, and NA petrols, LPT petrol, and numerous HPT petrols.

I was more thinking that these days they run petrol turbos as well as diesel - like VAG and Volvo do.

Even if there are, which I'm not entirely sure there is given the posts to date, it doesn't make you and the few nodding in a agreement with you, 'the group', which you quite clearly implied with the comment above, that I'm some sort of David up against the Goliath 'the group'.

You're not... it's here in black and white, if you look back - I'm not the only one to have stood up and defended diesels.

Ok... but we're discussing them in general, and you will note I'm only arguing against anothers ill-considered 'statement of facts'.

I see... so nothing cheaper, or smaller, would do the same, would it?

Admit it... you wanted it, and you bought / leased / picked it off the company car list. Other cars would do just as good an overall job, for less money.

And even my 90bhp M plate Golf TDI would sit reasonably quietly at 110+ all day long, still knocking out 48mpg...

Aw, that's nice... you considering how long the car will last, once it's been changed for another, way before it gets to the elderly stage.

Tell me... how many early 740s do you see on the roads now?

So because your petrol does that, it means all petrol cars do it...

Mmkay.

Well I've done over 100k (personally) in my S70 (it had 82k on the clock when I bought it in 2001). It's now got 185k on the clock.

As to maintenance costs, normal servicing. Same for the autobox - I have the ATF changed every 50k (I use Volvo's harsh usage as a schedule). I don't pay main dealer rates, I use a good, local Volvo independent. As to anything that's cost me over normal servicing - exhaust bracket, radiator (slight leak), heater matrix, the odd aerial mast (stupid, stupid electric aerials).

Now true enough, a reasonable size petrol engine, with an autobox, isn't the last word in fuel economy. But it's reliable, comfortable, smooth, refined, and effortless. And it's not costing me anything to own apart from running costs (no loan, or finance). So I'm going to keep it as long as it stays reliable.

So petrol is only good for arsing about but diesel is good for actually doing things?

A bit harsh, I feel.

My understanding is that Burgerman is a do-er, and not just armed with theoretical knowledge. I've been aware of his site for a few years, and the sorts of things he's done with engines, cars, and bikes (not to mention modifications to the performance of electrical wheelchairs ;-)).

Sadly, his recent experiences of diesel lumps seems to be limited to a shagged Fiat Ducato.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not really a big fan of diesels, but, on the occasions I have driven a modern(ish) diesel, I've been pleasantly surprised at how little there is, in every day use, between a diesel and a petrol.

Unfortunately, when I bought my Passat, I'd have had to have found an extra 1500 quid for a decent spec TDi and with the company covering my petrol (at the time I accepted the deal) it didn't, for me, make sense.

If I'd have known then that fuel prices were going to rocket the way they have, I'd definitely have found the extra cash for a TDi.

But presumably (my brother was a bike courier for some years), fuel economy is not the major issue. Disks, tyres, drivetrain and engine maintenance tend to be the major factor.

And I'm sure it will be an absolute, electric experience to watch. Watching cars win races, because their fuel economy is better, rather than can actually race on pace.

Personally, I'm ambivalent. I'm not sure I could live with one in terms of the noise / lack of refinement, or driving characteristics. But when the time to change cars comes along, given that I do around 25k miles a year, I'll at least give it some consideration - even then, though, I'm not sure the financial savings in fuel costs would tempt me, but time will tell.

Diesel is a compromise just like petrol, not all people think that revving the engine to 8k is good to drive.

Sounds like the perfect candidate for a TDi lump, it's hardly a sporting car even with the top of the line petrol engine.

Implied ;-) - you inferred.

Sorry, pet peeve about the use of the two words. I'll get me coat...

They do tend to be the over-riding factor in running bikes big distances.

But that's a big part of endurance racing.... the fastest car doesn't always win, it's quite often the one that has the best balance between pace and economy.

The only extra noise comes at idle - after that, apart from a redline starting at 5k rpm, you'd be hard pushed to know you're driving a diesel.

Which is why I (perhaps overly subtly) don't feel that there will be a huge push for diesels to reach prevalence in bikes.

Don't get me wrong - I understand endurance racing isn't all about the spectacle of actually watching _racing_. But fuel economy reared it's head in CART a few years ago. And as an avid fan up to that point, I became a whole deal less interested in watching it, after that.

Oh I get the fact that on the move, what with lotsa insulation, and that, that they aren't that obvious. It's just the sound and lack of refinement when they start and at idle, that doesn't exactly draw me to them.

Gearing and insulation.

Stand outside it when it's started, or accelerating from stationary.

An S60 is hardly that big. It's similar sized to a Mondeo, Vectra or Passat. My S70 is slightly larger - but even then I still consider it a mid-size car, when compared to big saloons, and it would definitely be only considered a mid-size in the US.

In the Mondeo the redline was at 4k, with the limiter at about 4.5k - but you were waaaaaaaaay out of the power band by then....