Don't get me wrong, i like Honda's :) I'd have a civic type R, i was just saying, i imagine a Turbo with the same power would be a much sweeter drive. Luckily i'm still young and don't mine revving ;)
Sorry about the previous post of mine, hit send before I engaged my brain! (c:
TMV? True Market Value of what? The UK car (Rover 600Ti) Nom's talking about is pretty cheap, and is worth a very small proportion of its new cost once the first owner has taken the hit of tax and depreciation. For a car of similar power size and specification nothing really comes close here. For some it would be below TMV if I understand what you mean by it. If you mean the TMV new, I cant comment as I dont know what price they were.
Douglas
Sound has got nothing to do with it driving like shit unless it's revving at over 6,000rpm.
Nice change of subject tho, smoothly done :)
If you're happy with your U.K car built out of pieces from wherever and mfr owned by ??? - hard to keep count really - that's fine for you. Sorry but the "world" does not seem to be following. There are cars which will rev way beyond 6Krpm without fuss - good engineering makes a difference!!
Not really... unless you have a definition of "flogging" which is relevant.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Seems like the state of the U.K. car industry reflects pretty well what its own citizens thought of the quality - 'nuff said.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
No, I don't have to.
But I choose to :)
Ah.
Why not ?
Yes, and that's a good thing.
I dunno about you, but I certainly like buying very cheap cars !
My car was £21,000 brand new. I bought it 5 years old, with 48,000 miles, for £4000.
Yep - I'm very happy with mine.
So ?
I don't give two hoots what the rest of the world is doing !
Yeah, he gets what is basically a Honda but with a 200bhp turbocharged British engine (and some horrible stick on "wood") for much less money than an equivelantly powered rev-happy Honda of the same age.
Result!
Does marque heritage really make that much difference to you? Or would your neighbours laugh at you because your car didnt cost as much as theirs or didnt have the percieved "good engineering" you require?
Douglas
message
Why do americans and australians always do that? When there's nowhere left to go, just make fun of the British car industry.
UK car manufacturers were pretty good around the 1950's and 60's. They were messed around a bit by the government in the 1970's and then the trade unions got all uppity and signed the industry's death warrant by striking for a laugh every 5 minutes which was a joke. Perhaps it a had a bit to do with the economic climate in the UK at the time as well.
FWIW, I believe that originally companies like Honda copied some old british car designs, improved them over time, and are now major players in a world market, to the point where they owned a large part of Rover untill recently. Kind of Ironic really.
The way I see it, british car manufacturers tried to rest on their laurels (because at one point the UK was an engineering centre of excellence) while everyone else kept developing.
Why can't you buy many american built cars in the UK? Doesnt that show you what faith British people have in American car manufacturers quality? Why do many big japanese and european companies choose to built cars in the UK? It's probably import tax related, but it is possible to build decent quality cars here cost effectively when theres less socialism involved.
Douglas
Balls. It's an exact replacement for engine torque. Power is conserved throughout drivetrain (ignoring losses), torque scales with gearing.
A golf TDi 110 produces more torque than the Ti (235 vs 232.5), and the car weighs slightly less, but it _isn't_ a quicker car, and the reason it isn't is that the Ti can rev to 6000 rpm and has lower gearing.
Lol, way to load your statement. If you halve the torque you need to halve the gearing -> twice the revs, so as I say it's noisy, but there is no _fundamental_ reason why driving at 6000 rpm is any worse than driving at
3000 rpm. It doesn't make for a good cruiser, but it's fine for a hot- hatch.
As has been stated, only if you want to drive at high revs constantly.
Because it produces a lot less power...
Nothing loaded about it. That's how it is.
Like you said, "balls".
Agreed, and if I was in my teens, I'm sure I'd enjoy it. I'm in my 20's tho, and driving one is just a ballache of a chore.
Your original statement was that you can't get lots of torque at the wheels without lots of torque at the engine. The fact is that you can, by using high revs and low gearing. This does, as you say, require using high revs.
Because the Ti revs much higher. If you never took the Ti above 4000rpm it would be no quicker than the TDi.
You combine opinion with fact. It's true that lower torque engines need to rev higher, but the absolute angular speed of the crankshaft is an arbitrary mechanical asbtract of interest only to engineers. What is of interest to drivers is how much torque is available at the wheels, and hence what actual accleration can be attained, and that is a function of the power produced by the engine, not the torque.
Aside from noise, how pleasant an engine is to drive is dependent on the distribution of the torque - an ideal engine has a flat torque profile across it's rev range. The Ti manages this to a good approximation, and many tuned NA petrol engines don't, but using VTec and similar it is quite possible to get a pretty flat distribution.
So we are agreed that it is ultimately a matter of taste then? Personally I'm a big fan of turbo engines, but I can see the place for high revving screamers.
I didn't... make fun of it... and probably less than I deride the U.S. car industry. It was a great tragedy the way the U.K. industry was brought down and of course somewhat corresponded with the rise of the U.K. auto racing industry. There was obviously raw talent being squandered by the likes of Rubery Owen, Lucas and other sub-standard OE suppliers. Now the U.K. racing industry is in the process of being brought down by the greed of the principals, the corrupt court system and a governement (CE and domestic) bent on meddling the economy to death - plus ça change.... The Germans seem to be wallowing in it.... again!:-(
From my POV it was as much a management problem as a union problem. Surely a bunch of the country's educated elite could have been expected to do better at managing the unwashed mass. What the hell did they teach them in their ivory towers of learning? Certainly many of the crippling strikes, notably Rootes in Acton, which was a result of a single shop steward who called a wildcat action which brought the whole organization to its knees, were not union led. There was plenty of blame to go around.
Yes it's very ironic. The Japs copied the U.K. engine and other subsytem designs - don't forget the motorcycles - and the Yanks taught them how to do quality control. Now they're making an ass out of the U.S. auto industry. Mind you, knowing a bit about how things actually work at the Jap auto mfrs, they'll get their turn eventually.... maybe India or China, or some other new ecomomic power, will take their pants down.
Though there were exceptions, there wasn't really a problem with the engineering, for its day - the materials/assembly/finish was a disgrace. Even the non-strike-bound cars were only passable in the international market.
The U.S. mfrs know how to produce big cars with big engines - not really relevant to the Euro market. The question is: is it possible to assemble decent quality cars out of U.K. origin parts? Renault doesn't think so and has forced Nissan abroad - not sure about Honda et.al.
I believe you're way off the mark by attaching past failures to a political idealogy. Has it occurred to you that many of the the upper class are bloody awful at managing people?... but they get the jobs anyway!
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Point??
I buy what I like and dependability, ease of DIY, while still being pleasant to drive, counts a lot to me. I don't pay much attention to neighbors or their likes or dislikes. Honda, Toyota etc. are not perfect but their engineering is rather good.:-)
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
The point is that I'm very happy with my "U.K car built out of pieces from wherever and mfr owned by ???" for the reasons above.
Exactly the same situation here, which is exactly why I drive a Turbo car with a nice simple engine.
So are you a different personor are you being "cute" and posting under several aliases?... nasty habit that.
We have different views of "good engineering" then. We'll see what endures.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Neither. I am Nom, and Douglas is Douglas. I was merely replying to your reply to his post !
"Neither"? Sounds like even you are confused... a virtual person??:-)
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
I can confirm that Nom and I are not the same person, believe what you will, but I think if you bother to do some header snooping, you'll find this is true or that one of us works very hard to make you believe we are not the same person. One of us drives what is largely a rebadged honda and the other drives a mighty rebadged GM beast from the early 1990's.
I think Nom is also a virgin.
And gay.
(c:
Douglas
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