Re: It's that cheap motor thread again.

I'd have said it was more like a fantastic roar, tbh. Seriously. Fanfeckintastic engines. I've hired a VW LT a few times with both 2.5 litre variants that comes with (95 and 109bhp) and they're both pretty decent too, and I managed to reliably get 29mpg (on a par with the CDI Sprinters, if not slightly better - never actually run one so couldn't accurately comment) from them doing multidrop work, which impressed me a lot - I always thought a 5-potter would have been more juicy for stop start work, but it really wasn't.

I can't remember cupholders tbh - maybe it came from an era when they weren't to car desirability what CO2 is to the desrtuction of our planet.....

Heh. You say the Mk1 A6 handles *better* than a B5 Passat? Surely not - I thought the B5 Passats were the best car in the world. . On a serious note, that's quite impressive, given that the B5s were a much more modern design of chassis.

To be fair, unlike modern TDs, they don't do anything much below 2k, which is a nuisance on the motorway when it's geared to do something around 34mph/krpm in 6th - I remember having to change down to 5th to whoosh satisfyingly past the 65mph dawdlers when they pull back in.

I'd definitely have another, although next time I'd try it in the volvo

Possibly. TBH, I'm not sure if any of my current crop have 'holders, so I'm not a reliable witness.

Not all that impressive, given that the passat was only marginally better than the Hyundai Accent hire car I had in greece.

My 405, which was several years older, was vastly better than either for both ride and handling..

You clearly weren't going fast enough then :-)

Know what you mean though - I drove it for a day keeping it in the powerband, meaning that I'd mostly be in one gear lower than usual, and it was much more satisfying, and didn't really impact at all on fuel consumption. All good.

I can't be arsed with these smelly diesel things these days....

Yeah, but that was....... French.......

Carl Gibbs writ:

Supercharged? Mk 1?

Richard

Yep. 170ish bhp - just right to have a bit more fun, and the noise is great

Sure... and diesels have just beaten the crap out of any petrol car at the 24 Hrs of Le Mans (like they do for about 3 years now on every endurance circuit) and posted the fasted recorded racelap of all times.

That lap was a mere second above the *sprint* record of the 917 Porsche of J. Olivier (1500 HP/ 750 kg iirc) back in the Stone Ages when the Le Mans Straight still was straight.

If the Mulsanne Straight hadn't received the chicane the Peugeot 908 DIESEL would have broken the 917-record by around 10 sec while being in endurance-trim.

I heard even a reporter congratulate -I think- one of the Porsche Spiders as being the first petrol car after the diesels.

Yeah: no racer would want a diesel... the all like the unfair disadvantage.

Tom De Moor

Of course they do. Its an economy race. Show me a sprint race thats not artificially fuel restricted where a deisel wins.

And you are saying a sprint car wouldnt still murder the deisel in todays racing???

All hypothetical and that was then and this is now.

In an endurance/economy/save the planet race...

Only in endurance. Which is an "economy race" or fuel race, and not a real race. Like you dont see any doing any good anywhere else. Show me a diesel top fuel car, bike racer, or even winning sprint racer.

And even then that argument is not related. in a race ease of use isnt an issue. Its possible to get good power from a diesel but its still inflexible and crap in a car without having masses of gears to try and get one to match the engines limited rpm range of useful power.

The diesel Seat Leons have won races in the BTCC and ETCC. They're even vaguely road car related too. I don't like diesels either to drive, but I can appreciate what they can do these days, but you're just really prejudiced against them for your own reasons, whatever they may be, and won't even consider the possibility they can be pretty good these days.

Underdogs can win races occasionally. It does not mean that overall they are better.

I don't like diesels either to drive, but I

Cos their just not! :)

And their only saving grace is economy and now that everyone uses diesel its dearer than petrol. And LPG...

They're title contenders, not just one win flukes heh! They're always fastest through the speed traps as well, the only problem they had at the start of the season in the BTCC was a total lack of testing, so it took them a few races to hone the setup for the big load of extra weight over the front axles.

Do they get favourable weight breaks or something? I dont follow it. Maybe they are alowed turbos where the rest of the better proper cars arent? There must be something in the rules that favours the smelly deisel because boost for boost petrol wins. If so then obviously they can win. But then its far from a level playing field is it?

Something in the rules must be helping them. If not we would see Deseasel forfula 1 (and that IS a fuel race) Diesel top fuel dragsters, diesel motorcycles (yes there is one and its slower than walking) etc etc.

No, many of us also thought the same.

In the WTCC they were successful enough to be rev limited to 4100rpm. Not so in the BTCC.

True enough they are turbos though and the petrols are N/A.

Then give the petrols a turbo, fairs fair. That should 3x the power output.

But then you'd be changing the rules to help the petrol engines.

I know it's tricky to make rules that level the playing field, and turbos have always been an issue, but it's good for motorsport that manufacturers are being encouraged to go down a different path than highly strung N/A petrols and the associated cost of them.

I could see a lot more manufacturers getting interested in running TDI saloon cars as it's relatively cheap and easy to get power out of them.

Yeah yeah : because you claim so. Not because it is that way.

The word is "Regulations" and the item is turbo.

It is *impossible* to win from a turbo-diesel engine with a NA-petrol if both have the same top powerout. Racing, war and love have never been about level playing grounds.

NO! It is NOT a fuel race: fuel is plentifull and the kind of fuel is unimportant. The limiting factor is AIR!

Formula 1? That race-discipline has a book of around 1000 pages of rules about the engine. (turbo)Diesel engines are BANNED. The actual power out of a petrol 2.4 l V8 is around 800 HP and even F1 lacks the money to research/develop it further.

It would take about 6 months to a year of work for most engine- manufacturers to develop a 2.4 V8 TURBO-diesel engine with a higher output... that as long as boost is free.

All that depends on regulations AND development. Diesels engines are more complicated and more expensif to make and are as such not found around throw away-engines like those for bikes or dragsters.

You focus on fuel but what determines powerout is in fact the air going into the engine. Adding fuel -whichever one- is the very easy bit.

If a turbo on a turbo-diesel engine of 2 litre capacity gives 4 bar absolute, the engine become a 6 liter diesel engine. A 6 liter diesel engine blows the socks off any 2.0 NA-petrol one... Needs more dieselpower? Set the turbo somewhat higher.

It's all about getting air, oxygen in fact, into the engine.

Tom De Moor

Rubbish Turbos are used on petrols and diesels. And diesels also come turbo free. Obviously the inferior deseasel needs a turbo just to get out of its own way.

If the diesel can use a turbo then why restrict the petrol engines to running without.

Well if giving a diesel the advantage of a turbo "levels" the playing field then it just proves that they are not competitive.

Of course. Just wind up the boost. But wait... That leads to blown motors and masses of expence once the other teams get going and it gets more competitive. Turbos always do that to motorsport because more boost = faster. Until bang....

Taking it further, why limit it to blown petrols. Why not go back to equivalency factors between N/A and blown lumps, too.... and lets throw rotaries in there to make it really complicated.

But a blown diesel *is* competitive, and that's all that counts. Get the equivalencies right to ensure both petrol and TDI lumps are in the running and you have a fair and close race series.

Which is why they run them with restrictors.