Stephen Vivarttas was a Great Kid

Michael Johnson wrote in news:4pqdnXj-uJWIE9_bnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Understood, Michael. However, read this excerpt from the original article:

"I was very involved in my son's life, but I also had to let him be a teenager," said Cathy Vivarttas, 44, beside her other son, Michael, 10. "And look at what it got me. He was the kind of kid that if you tried to control him, he would rebel."

Now imagine those words coming from your wife about your child. How would that sit with you?

CobraJet wrote in news:090520071842368907% snipped-for-privacy@skin.molt:

Two things: (a) IMO fate is no excuse for ignoring responsibility. (b) Judging from what you said, I would guess that your "strict" parents did what they could rather than just say "the hell with the kid - he's a teenager".

BTW, I got into my first wreck about a day after I got my permit, let alone my license. In my buddy's mom's station wagon no less (it was a

60-something Galaxie faux-woodie).

Same with a lot of us, me included. However, the kid's actions aren't the issue - it's the mother's non-action. The point is that the kid's mother was quoted as saying she basically gave up after meeting with resistance:

From the original article: "I was very involved in my son's life, but I also had to let him be a teenager," said Cathy Vivarttas, 44, beside her other son, Michael, 10. "And look at what it got me. He was the kind of kid that if you tried to control him, he would rebel."

WTF is this? Troll bait? Well, either way.... Some kid died street racing or drunk? I'm confused. If this is so, I'm quite sure this Jenna wouldn't be crying so much if "Stephen" had hit someone else's family member and killed them and instead would be looking for his release from prison and escape from criminal charges. I have to restrain myself daily from punching the shit out of some kid lightening them up on a residential street. Maybe next time I'll do the kid, myself and Jenna a favour and actually do it. (What's most ironic is that if someone did this and someone else actually came home that nite, you'd never know that you saved a life, but maybe it's all worth our time to do it nonetheless...)

B

I read that and can take a number of ways. My Dad let my sister ride a motorcycle at 17-18 years of age. My brother did too back then as did my Dad. I do believe the parents could have prevented him from driving on that particular night and if they knew what was going to happen I'm sure they would have at any cost. In the end it was the kid behind the wheel making bad decisions.

I go back to myself at that age. Thinking back I drove drunk, I raced (funny that I never raced while being drunk though), I broke the law in other ways and it wasn't my parents fault in the least. I hid it well. When it comes right down to it how much actual control do you have over a teenager? You almost have to be willing to chain them in the basement to have full control or be with them 24 hours a day, seven days a week. If she knew he was racing then they should have taken the keys but that wouldn't necessarily have prevented his eventual death. Sometimes I think we are too quick to think we are a better parent than the next person but under the right circumstances we would be the same or worse.

To be honest I don't know how it would sit with me because I didn't experience what they have gone through with the kid. It is easy to criticize from a distance but if we lived through their experiences we might not do any better than they did.

Life is full of events that should never have been allowed to happen. If we think we can stop bad events from occurring we are wrong and if we did life wouldn't be worth living, IMHO. People have a God given right to be stupid and die because of it. Occasionally, and unfortunately, they will take others with them in the process. This is the way it has always been and the way it always will be. It is the price we pay for having a certain degree of personal freedom.

If I really wanted to assign blame, it would be upon my generation for this ridiculous policy of non-physical punishment and overprotection from life's realities while raising their offspring. I really don't know how this came to be, but it's a whole 'nother topic and I digress.

As for ignoring responsiblity, I see that constantly by all generations. We are not as enlightened of a culture as we like to view ourselves. Not by a long shot.

That would be called a Country Squire, the George Washington of the SUV movement. You should be proud to have driven such a holy vehicle.

See my comment above about clueless parents. Evidently, "Spare the rod and spoil the child" never sank in. At 19, he was an adult, a man, and it was up to him whether he tempted fate or not.

Hey, let's do this! Let's blame ALL the parents of ALL the guys (and girls) who ever entered into competitive motorsports!! Hell yeah! I mean, how could the parents have been successful if their kids chose to battle it out on racetracks, where you are guaranteed to get in collisions? Why stop there? Let's indict the parents of rock climbers, skydivers, and long distance swimmers.

Get it?

This country makes too much of accidental death. Ever driven in Europe? I'm not talking about the Autobahn. I'm talking about negotiating streets with no painted lanes in little shitboxes with no protection. People die there all the time. You think the media trots out the whole sorry drama about the victim's upbringing and who's to blame and how many new laws should we pass and all that shit? Hell no. Sweep up the mess and motor on.

I stand by my claim. It's just fate.

hey, now that's on topic!!! did he have a big NOPI sticker, aluminum wing and a 4" exhaust tip?

seriously, i went back and read the original thread...actually pretty interesting; it didn't deteriorate into a yelling match between differing sides. I just don't see where posting something on usenet logically fits into a grieving process (hey, she's certainly going through more emotionally (losing a child) than I've ever been through, but still....)

Michael Johnson wrote in news:DNKdndxedaXFyN7bnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Agreed.

Exactly, point being that parents should be doing their job as parents. What I got out of the excerpt was that the mother simply didn't.

As the parent of one now, I can tell you first hand: not much at all.

But control isn't the issue. As you've said, you can't control teens - nor should you try. The best you can do as a parent is set the best possible example for your kids every single day and hope they pick up on it.

It's not a question of being a better parent - it's simply trying your best every day to keep those you love safe.

Sure, it's Monday morning quarterbacking. But this particular event crossed the line IMO. To me it was a case of the mother simply not doing everything she could have to keep her child safe, especially after her diatribe in here.

Maybe so, but I believe in the end we'll all own up to what we've done (or not done). Those who blame others (or other factors) for their own inadequacies are the stupid ones.

CobraJet wrote in news:100520071137208050% snipped-for-privacy@skin.molt:

Indeed. I've got a couple of years on you, but I know exactly what you mean and I agree.

Again, on the money. One of mankind's favorite pastimes is blaming others for their own inadequacies. Damn, we are good at that.

Believe me, I was. Thanks for the memory jog - couldn't think of it when I wrote the post. I was also fortunate enough to have driven my mom's '66 Colony Park. It too was a faux-woodie with a 390 and power everything. I broke the motor mounts on it doing neutral drops in high school.

Yes, but that's not my point. I'm not blaming the mother for the kid's death, I'm blaming her for simply being a spineless chickenshit.

You can say that about anything. Sure, the kid was going to die because of who he was. But the real point is that the kid's mother was basically a chickenshit not to at least try to knock some sense into him. Rather than stand up to him, she wimped out because she knew "he would rebel".

In my experience it isn't that hard to hide bad deeds from parents. That fact I was getting good grades, going to an engineering college, was respectful to my elders, held a job etc. was all it took to pull the wool over there eyes. I guess you could say I was a functional degenerate. :)

My Father said you have the first five years of a child's life to instill good values in them. After that it becomes exponentially harder with every year that passes.

One thing I can say for certain is this kid's family is hurting far more from his death than any pain we can cause them here. Hind sight is always 20-20 and if we were in the middle of their situation we might not have as clear of vision as we do now. That was my basic point here.

I always thought it was four. By then, personality is pretty well set, and the foundation for right v. wrong is hopefully instilled. The rest of the child's growth is in refining the black and white into multitudes of grey.

The parents' job becomes one of an advisory role at the age of maturity. The kid in this story was 18 and solely responsible for his own decisions. The parents are no longer accountable, at least legally.

And, yes, I also did a few really stupid things as a young "adult," and it's a wonder to me that I managed to survive. But none of that was because of the way my parents raised me, rather my own stupidity.

dwight

"dwight" wrote in news:1a6dnSGE0M3VjNjbnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Sure, we all did stupid things and it's a miracle that we're all alive and basically well now. But your statement that "parents are no longer accountable, at least legally" is nonsense. You can't tell me that you're that kind of parent after I read about the whole excursion to get The Boy's car and fix it up for him.

No, you're reading it wrong. I am not accountable for The Boy's decisions, not since he turned 18. He is now a separate legal entity unto himself.

That does not mean, however, that I don't still take a role - albeit strictly advisory - in his life. Yes, I still talk to him, still guide him, still counsel him, still weigh in with my wallet on occasion, but what he decides to do is entirely on him.

dwight

Even before the age of eighteen a parent has far less than full control over their child. IMO, they begin to become responsible for their own decisions when they turn into teenagers and transition to full responsibility, at least in the eyes of the law, at eighteen.

The same goes for me. I would bet their are plenty of parents today that would have a coronary if they knew what little Johnny or Jane have done. If they are lucky they will NEVER know.

"dwight" wrote in news:4YudnXt8msgRJ9jbnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Point taken. Your 2nd paragraph above is what the kid's mother didn't do. That was my original point.

ok well maybe all of you should read the newspapers and stop talkin about him...he is gone and all you people want to place the blame on someone...well did you know that the kid he was racing apparently hit him which then led to him loosing control of the car? so who is to blame now..or the fact that the meet he was at..he was repeditively called to come out to..the race was a set up...so shut up!! his parents are going through alot and if you are a parent you should just hope that it doesnt happen to your kid...

Did you hibernate for a month??

Blame is where it lies.

Bullshit. Poast a link to that information, some kind of proof. That was not in ANY of the articles I read.

Same place it was before. He was illegally racing, had zero clues, zero protection and zero

So? If I tell you to go jump off a bridge numerous times are you finally going to give in and do it? If you believe that, you're as stupid as he was.

Bite me.

No, my kid would be the innocent dope leaving the maal that got smashed by your moron friend illegally drag racing if he hadn't met that curb a couple of months ago. Darwin's theory is not just a theory anymore is it....

Russel scroll to bottom....

This is not a critisizm just some information for you, This is not your "Unique IP address."

127.0.0.1 is the standard IP address used for a loopback network connection.

This means that if you try to connect to 127.0.0.1, you are immediately looped back to your own machine.

If you telnet, ftp, etc... to 127.0.0.1, you are connected to your own machine.

In other words, 127.0.0.1 is you.

For example, if your system was named "joker", and you attempted to telnet to 127.0.0.1, you would see:

# telnet 127.0.0.1 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to joker Escape character is '^]'.

Convincing newbie's to connect to 127.0.0.1 is a frequent joke on the Internet.

Another name for 127.0.0.1 is localhost.

Although 127.0.0.1 is the most commonly utilized address for localhost, any IP address in the 127.*.*.* range should also function in the same manner.

.

never mind i just realized..... %P

Thank you SO much. I didn't know you were part of the team. So, you must think my name is Russel, right?