None of these are Subies....

Can you imagine being on this road?

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-John O

Reply to
JohnO
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What amazes me is that there were people standing around out on the road. If I were there, I would have been up on the rooftop where the guy with the video camera was. I wonder how long it took before the fire truck got nailed. I've been in ice storms where the salt/sand spreaders had to drive in reverse. Not even a Subaru with studded snow tires can get you through that stuff. I just watched the show from a safe distance.

Reply to
Nick Danger

If the road was sheeted over with ice I don't think having an AWD Subaru would have helped much. I'm over on the eastside outside Seattle and with the ice I saw a Subaru go spinning down an icy covered road. In the first snow we had in the Seattle area back in November I lost count though of the number of RWD BMWs and Mercedes which littered the roadside.

I have a Legacy sedan and I took it slow and easy with all of the ice around Seattle. AWD helps but it doesn't allow me to defy the laws of physics when it comes to driving and stopping in snowy or icy conditions.

Tony

Reply to
aschlemm

Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on with each other. )-; They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic machines able to turn the Californian "I don't know how to 4WD but I have one" driver into a good driver (no offense to the good Cali drivers). I saw way too much overconfidence out there from our fellow Soob drivers. I vote for better mass transit, as nobody here knows how to drive very well! Oh, and can some parents get their kids out of the streets where cars are still driving as their sleds don't mix well with cars!

~Brian

Reply to
strchild

A question from a clueless californian: do dedicated studless snow tires help on ice? Can't stud the tires here. Besides a californian with studs would look stupid, don't you think?

Reply to
isquat

In my experience, I can't stand studded snow tires. Noisy, and really only beneficial on ice, but I fail to see just how beneficial, as if you must drive under those conditions you might just as well chain up, plus deceptively slippery on regular and wet pavement,. I'm sure others have their own opinion, but I feel the trade-offs outweigh the benefits, plus how often are they needed in this area? Only road I couldn't traverse this last bit of ice and snow with my all-season tires, dedicated studs would have been equally as useless. Chains might have gotten me up, but it's hard to say if they would have gotten me down again, or let me slide off the road.

Just my opinion though. (-;

~Brian

Reply to
strchild

First thing - studded tires aren't legal in California. I'm pretty sure true studless snow tires will make things better but don't perform miracles. The Tire Rack did some testing on an ice rink with everything from a true studless ice tire to a summer tire that was downright scary. It's still not going to make a performance car handle as well as a land yacht in dry conditions. There needs to be a good deal of respect that winter conditions are still challenging, even with dedicated winter tires. What really should work well on ice are the "Z" type chains. Unlike radial chains, they're designed such that part of the chain is contacting the surface at all times. People still need to drive slowly.

BTW - I heard studs aren't legal in Minnesota. Go fig.

Reply to
y_p_w

I bought a bag of kitty litter the last time I was up in the Sierras, just in case I needed it to get myself or anyone moving. Supposedly works wonders but then again, I don't think I can sprinkle it for an entire 6 mile trip.

I've driven in the snow and ice. From the video, it looked like everyone gave way too much gas and got enough traction to get momentum, but not enough to control the car. I learned quickly that you need to brake gently (and very early) the first time I skidded in a parking lot in South Lake Tahoe. Luckily it was just five feet and I got a better feel for steering braking on ice.

Reply to
y_p_w

You get kinda used to the ice when you do a 40 mile paper route in it at

1000' elevation and up. (-; 1st gear is your friend, works a bit like anti-lock breaks. It's funny to watch your spedometer bottom out instantly when your front tires lock up and slide. Can kinda use it as an indicator for slippage, at which point, you either let off the breaks, or well, go wherever the car is going to go, and that's probably not where you're steering. Course, I'm not talking anti-lock breaks so, don't just take my word for it, learn how your own car will react in the slick conditions before you go out to play. I learned early during the first three months I was driving, in a heavy, Plymouth Volarie, with a nice 318 V8 and rear wheel drive. Amazing how much speed you pick up, going down a steep, iced over hill, but I never did wreck the thing for the bad weather. (-;

I agree about the video. I say, try 1st gear, and noooooo gas at all. Getting somewhere late is better than wrecking the car and not getting anywhere. Wonder how many of those vehicles had anti-lock breaks, but then how well do wheels not lock-up when they are sliding sideways? (-;

~Brian

Reply to
strchild

I suspect most of these sliding idiots also were standing on their brake pedals, which doesn't help improve traction once it's lost.

Reply to
KLS

Well said Brian.

Engineering can't repeal the laws of physics.

Reply to
Jim Stewart

I run my old GL in a "studded-tire" class, in our winter ice rally-cross series. They make a huge difference, probably 15- 20 seconds on a 90-100 second course, vs the "bare-tire" guys on fresh Blizzaks. They enable a savvy driver to start, initiate turns, and (most importantly) stop with authority. Chains are probably marginally better on ice (if you can stand the vibration), but where they really shine is in deep snow (or mud, FWIW). Dedicated ice tires are quite good when new, but still not as positive as studs. Once the treated rubber is gone, they are no better than regular all-seasons

Nothing will do much good, however, if the driver doesn't know how to work the car (all too common, alas); simply mashing harder on the brake pedal during a slide just isn't gonna help matters.

And you're quite right; studs, especially fresh ones, do reduce the tires ultimate grip somewhat on dry pavement. One more factor for the equation. I'm sure chains have the same effect, but with chains mounted, you're unlikely to go fast enough for it to be a concern.

I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when faced with glossy ice. Studded tires make it work much better; perhaps because they do offer at least _some_ grip to work with.

I drive the all-season equipped Legacy most of the time, and the studded GL on bad days. Chains on all four when the snow gets deep, the plow hasn't been around, and there's no beer in the fridge :-) The missus beats me up until I put the studded tires on her Forry in the fall, and she won't let me take 'em off until the snow season is well past in the spring.

ByeBye! S.

PS: Last event, we had someone show up in an "exhibition class" WRX rally car set up with screws in his tires, similar to the setup the motorcycle ice racers use. Couldn't believe how fast he was going, and with this HUGE grin . . . obviously having _way_ too much fun.

Next season . . . :-)

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

Reply to
S

I wasn't braking hard, but I found that ABS just didn't do that much when I started sliding in snow-covered ice. In dry/wet conditions, I've never really felt ABS engaging except for panic braking - usually with pedal to the floor.

Well - what kind of chains do you use? I hear the diagonal type chains work better and look to be easier to install with the three connection points (and final connection on the top where there should be more room to work with). Frankly it looks like the same connection setup could be applied to a ladder chain.

I went through my 2004 WRX manual, and it recommends only installing chains on the front. However - I've read enough about winter driving to see recommendations that chains in front on an AWD/4WD vehicle could lead to a spinout if the rear tires break loose and the front tires have traction.

You're certainly right about speed and chains. I was driving up I-80 to Reno last winter. Some nuts were driving 40 MPH in falling snow with chains on; they were lucky they didn't come off. I've been around the Lake Tahoe area and see the odd chain here or there that ran away from its owner. Not before damaging a wheel well, tire, and/or paint job, no doubt.

Reply to
y_p_w

Sounds like an absolute blast, but I don't really wanna drive six hours in a winter ready car to find such a sporting event. But I might, if they had one around here... I'm not familiar with the motorcycle ice racing, but the screws in the tires sound hilarious. (-; Would love to do up a set for my XT6, as I ain't got no WRX, but probably wouldn't, as I would rather muck up my Impreza since it seems easier to get replacement parts for.

Never driven a car with anti-lock breaks before. I was under the impression they always function when breaking. Is that not the case?

One handy thing I've noticed, when my front wheels begin to slip, the spedo dives to zip, nomatter the speed I'm still moving forward. Helps me keep my downshifting proportional to my breaking when I can't hear the tires slipping or the car going off of center, so I don't pull something stupid and wind up like the folks in the videos. ... and no, I don't ignore the road ahead to watch the spedo, hehe. But it's nice to have an idea what the car is doing and when. (-;

~Brian

Reply to
strchild

"Brakes" and "braking", please. I don't get worked up over most spelling errors or typos, but that's the one common spelling error that drives me nuts. Now that I'm off that soapbox......

Anti-lock braking systems don't engage every time the brakes are used. They sense when the wheels have locked up while the brakes are engaged, and repeatedly apply and release pressure about 10 times a second (intervals depend on the individual system). Slamming the brakes on dry pavement will usually activate ABS. ABS might engage under less brake pedal force if the pavement is wet. If ABS engages, the driver will feel a rapid pulsation on the brake pedal as well as a loud groaning noise from the ABS pump cycling. When it doesn't engage, the braking system should feel just like any other non ABS brake system.

Reply to
y_p_w

Sorry, my apologies. The spelling didn't dawn on me until you pointed it out! (-;

Thanks for the info about the anti-lock "brakes"! Sounds somewhat distracting to me, but I suppose they do their job, and they're good for the pedal mashers out there.

~Brian

Reply to
strchild

And if you have ABS and try to pump the pedal when you hit slick conditions is a recipe for a spin.

Reply to
Ed

Why is that?

Reply to
CompUser

I was listening to a guy talking about this on the radio last weekend. He grew up in the Northeast and learned how to drive 4WD and pumping his brakes. He now lives in Colorado and was driving with the first car he has ever owned with AWD, traction control, and ABS. He found out that by pumping his brakes all he did was fight the traction and ABS systems and wound up going into a slow spin...

Why? I'm guessing he wound up causing the traction control system to speed up the wheels on one side and slow 'em down on the other.

Reply to
Ed

The ABS system, as someone here noted, is supposed to pulse the brakes, rather than simply locking the wheel(s), as would be the case in a foot-to-the-floor panic stop situation for most drivers. The ABS on my pops newer Caddy does just this (I tried it out on an icy patch when he first got it . . .). It really does help maintain control of the car; you don't really _stop_ any faster, but you maintain steering control for the most part. In a similar situation, the Subaru ABS doesn't seem to pulse the brakes, rather you get more of a klunk-slide klunk-klunk-slide sort of response, as the wheels lock and release. I'm guessing that the ABS is mis-intrepreting the sensor inputs under very low traction situations. At least on the Forester. having studded tires seems to alleviate this problem, and they function about the same as they would on pavement. I have also observed that ABS will often mis-behave on dirt/gravel roads. I've observed a dramatic reduction in braking response when it engages. Admittedly, I was going considerably faster than would be considered normal and/or sane at the time, but it was nowhere near as disconcerting on gravel as it is on ice.

If you _haven't_ experienced the ABS effect, I would advise that you try it out. Find a large empty parking lot. Run your car up to 35-40 MPH, and tromp on the brake pedal (do check the rear-view mirror, just in case . . .). You should both hear and feel a deep kinda HUMMM when the ABS kicks in. Try it again, and simultaneously work the steering, as if you were swerving to avoid an obstacle. You should be able to pretty much put your car where you want. Try the same thing with a non-ABS car to see the difference, but be sure there isn't anything in your line-of-fire, cause you're gonna slide, maybe even spin. Er, Um, _don't_ try this with your basic SUV; very few passenger cars will even try to flip in a slide/spin on flat unobstructed pavement, an SUV is an entirely different thing, tho, and you might find yourself looking at things from an entirely different perspective. Now try it again when the parking lot has ice. You will note some differences in the way your car responds.

Basic stuff. Lest you think this is silly, I can assure you that a driving school will put you thru this very sort of manoeuvre. In any event, you will feel better about your car, knowing what it feels like to slide and recover.

FWIW, all of our kids were required to put in a season of autocross after getting their license. Learning to control a car "on the edge" simply makes you a better driver. For all too many out there, their first experience of having their car get loose in a turn, or slide as a result of too much brake pedal, is in the few seconds before they hit something . . .

Couple years back, my usual autocross car (an MR2) was down, and I was prepping my Legacy to go to an event just for fun . . . My wife: "But _that's_ not a race car . . ." "Sweetheart, they're _all_ race cars . . ." :-D Autocross. Really, most highly recommended, and huge fun as well. Check out the SCCA web site for details, and to find an event near you.

Regular old "chains"; ladder-chains, I guess, not the cable-chains in any event. And yep, they sure are a pain in the a__ to put on; almost as bad to take off. Not to mention that usually by the time you decide you want 'em, you're stuck in knee-deep snow, your wheel-wells are packed with muddy slush, and you're wearing your goin'-to-work clothes.

So now you're gonna get down on your knees and mount those chains, eh? Easier said than done; those of you who have been there know _exactly_ what I'm talking about. Those who haven't . . . I recommend learning how on a warm, dry afternoon in the privacy of your driveway. And send the kids out to play lest they pick up some new and colorful language!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

Reply to
S

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