Timing Belt Replacement

Well, all I know is that I thank GOD that I went ahead and purchased the extended warranty on blinker fluid. That stuff is *expensive*. I was paying upwards of $500 a YEAR to refill that stuff! And that's with the frequent customer discount!

I'm really lucky to have found the one honest technician in town. ;-)

I may be wrong, but I think the later 3.2/3.5 was a totally different design. But yes - they are interference, and water pumps and pulleys do lock up on them.

Here's a repeat of the link I posted earlier:

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

You're being ridiculous now.

Engines cost a lot more than water pumps, plus water pumps don't last as long as the rest of the engine. IOW - it is prudent to change out a water pump pre-emptively. It is *not* prudent to change out an engine pre-emptively (unless you seriously suspect something's up, like it's a design that is known to sludge up and fail prematurely and yours is making knocking noises, etc.).

My daily driver has the Chrysler 2.7L - known to sludge up and fail at around 60 to 80k miles if oil and filter are not changed on a good regular schedule. It just turned 200k miles two weeks ago with original everything (t-chain and water pump). If its value weren't very low and it hadn't already been totalled out (due to the mileage) by my ins. co. due to a relatively minor wreck (I replaced one headlight assy., still has a bashed in fender and damage to both doors on passenger side - been driving it 80 miles every day since the accident), I'd be foolish not to replace the t-chain and water pump now because of the value it would lose if they were to fly apart. But it has close to no value now. I may replace them (t-chain, water pump, valve seals) in the next year, or I might not. But if it self-destructs in the mean time, it owes me nothing.

On that same engine - because it is famous for sludging up and failing at under 100k miles, many people replace them with a 3.2 or 3.5 at the first sign of problems, or after a meltdown.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Roughly.

Then don't have it done there.

Charging retail for parts is less than honest?

Or; maybe there is other maintenance work being done that they're forgetting to mention.

Not unheard of. GM Quad 4 Ford small block V-8

Naturally, "looked okay" is the perfect technical metric to assess the belt by.

Dumb ass in town here ignored the recommendations to change the timing belt on his Isuzu Trooper when due. The belt broke, the valve bent, now the truck is headed for the junk yard.

Yeah - that's the aspect of timing *chain* with pump that I hate. If it were not for the water pump holding a gun to the head of the t-chain, you'd leave the t-chain alone for the life of the vehicle. *BUT* if you go in to do the pump, it would be wrong not to replace the chain and it's tensioner. I have given serious thought to just replacing the pump, but if I do do it, I will likely do the chain too.

I wish they would make gear given cams in cars. It probably would take a little R&D on the part of the auto makers, but it could be done. The ironic killer probably is that their initial costs would probably be higher even though the cost to the consumer over the life of the vehicle would be lower.

And how about a lifetime water pump that was driven thru a magnetic coupler (no seals to wear out)?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Hah! I don't even go back for warranty repairs and recalls. I have found that a lot of the recalls are b.s., and the time wasted and other costs of dealing with the dealer are not worth the risks of them creating a new problem and me just doing it myself with parts purchased from on-line discount dealers (or possibly aftermarket, depending). (one exception: computer reflashes - but then only if the "fix " is known to really fix a real problem)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Not totally different. The engine evolved which explains it now being an interference engine.

I like the part where the OP claims that there was no warning, it just went. Duh! Ever check the maintenance schedule? It's clearly called out to replace the timing belt and components at

I just did the wifes 98 Intrepid 2 weeks ago. Laughably simple job. The surprise being; ChryCo does not offer a new replacement water pump anymore.

You'd be cutting your nose off to spite your face with that criteria, because almost all of them are belt driven. And the ones that aren't belt driven are chain driven with water pump driven by the chain! Which defeats the purpose of using a chain! I'd like to see the list of cars that don't have either belt driven cams or chain driven with the water pump driven by the chain. The list would be *very* short - chances are you wouldn't like the choices.

Like I said in a recent post - I'd like to see gear driven cams. Those are *truly* life of vehicle - no if's and's or but's. Magnetically couple the water pump (to eliminate the seals) and otherwise design it (bearings, impeller) to last the life of the vehicle.

Problem: Initial vehicle cost would be a little higher (a show-stopper in the automotive world), even though overall life-of-vehicle cost to the consumer would be less.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

That is what many wind up doing when they approach it like you do. (see Bill Putney's post about the 300M)

...Chrysler 2.7L (if it makes it past 100k miles - some people just swap it out for a 3.2 or 3.5 instead of chain and pump)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

That's actually only after the fact and there's valve damage. Now - for the 2.7L - known for serious sludging and catastrophic failure (even though mine is running like a champ at 200+k miles) - yes - people in the know often do swap those out for 3.2 or 3.5 as a pre-emptive measure rather than replace chain and pump and risk sludge failure anyway. (FWIW, the 2.7L did not come on 300M's, except in Europe, but it did come in many Intrepids and Concordes.)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

If by 'driver" you mean vehicle owner, of course it is. Scant few timing belts break before their scheduled replacement interval.

And when the chain breaks, the engine is at the end of its life. Long timing chains whip, to control the whip guides need to be used, those guides wear and allow chunks of the guide to fall to the oil pan where they can be ingested by the oil pump causing it to fail. Chains stretch, their pivot points wear, chains weigh more than belts sapping horse power and fuel economy. Even short non OHC timing chains fail; in the 60s, 70, and early 80s, you could damn near set your watch by when a Pontiac V-8 timing chain would let go, the early Buick V-6s were lousy also, Ford 302, Chrysler

All designs are a compromise.

If you can't accept the responsibility of performing the maintenance when it's time. Otherwise, buy away.

Makes sense when there is an alternative. Classic example is ChryCo minivans; the 3.0 liter engine uses a timing belt, the 3.3 and 3.8 liter engines use a timing chain that is very long lived. The 300 cc displacement does not account for any significant fuel savings (if any) so I always recommend the bigger ChryCo built engines.

I don't know how much of that thread you read, but when he initially bought the car and posted of his purchase, he was specifically warned to do the timing belt and pump.

Here's his first thread - almost exactly a year ago, 97k miles on the car:

The guy truly learned a lesson the hard way, and he realizes it. We didn't rag on him - we all felt bad.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

His codpiece provides equivalent protection.

Looks like it went right over his head.

I'd have ragged on him... ;-)

When the SILs water pump let go on her Camry, I think my exact words were; "jesus f*$&ing christ Becky, WTF did I tell you?"

On my vehicle the WP is NOT driven from the TB.

Then you would worry about the gears stripping or a shaft shearing.

Seriously, this discussion is good because it illuminates to those who are in need for a new TB what to expect and what to look out for.

I had one timing chain break on me in 49 years of driving and that was on my 1956 Chev six cyl. Fortunately it broke just after I traded it in for a used 1965 SS which turned out to be a pig.

My next was a 1969 MT car of the year, a Plymouth RR, that was a fine vehicle.

I didn't say that. Full retail for the belts is perfectly honest, but they can be found on the internet and in parts stores for up to 50 percent cheaper. The Gates TB can be had for $35 at NAPA, but the shop will get $65 as an example,, nothing wrong with it, but if someone is interested in saving money and can do the work themselves they can save additional dollars if they shop around.

In fear of that happening, that's why I changed mine. But NOT the WP.

Generally - no. Subarus (mid-70's IIRC) used to have gear driven cams. It was truly bullet proof.

Unless you make the gears out of plastic like Ford and GM have done in the past. When I say gears, I mean made out of real metal. Only our automakers can take a bullet proof design, like gears, and make it so that it is likely to fail.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')