Timing Belt Replacement

Well, all I know is that I thank GOD that I went ahead and purchased the extended warranty on blinker fluid. That stuff is *expensive*. I was paying upwards of $500 a YEAR to refill that stuff! And that's with the frequent customer discount!

I'm really lucky to have found the one honest technician in town. ;-)

Reply to
01dyna
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I may be wrong, but I think the later 3.2/3.5 was a totally different design. But yes - they are interference, and water pumps and pulleys do lock up on them.

Here's a repeat of the link I posted earlier:

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There's photos in that very recent thread of the aftermath of either the tensioner pulley or water pump locking up on a 3.5. The guy's now shopping for a used replacement engine.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

You're being ridiculous now.

Engines cost a lot more than water pumps, plus water pumps don't last as long as the rest of the engine. IOW - it is prudent to change out a water pump pre-emptively. It is *not* prudent to change out an engine pre-emptively (unless you seriously suspect something's up, like it's a design that is known to sludge up and fail prematurely and yours is making knocking noises, etc.).

My daily driver has the Chrysler 2.7L - known to sludge up and fail at around 60 to 80k miles if oil and filter are not changed on a good regular schedule. It just turned 200k miles two weeks ago with original everything (t-chain and water pump). If its value weren't very low and it hadn't already been totalled out (due to the mileage) by my ins. co. due to a relatively minor wreck (I replaced one headlight assy., still has a bashed in fender and damage to both doors on passenger side - been driving it 80 miles every day since the accident), I'd be foolish not to replace the t-chain and water pump now because of the value it would lose if they were to fly apart. But it has close to no value now. I may replace them (t-chain, water pump, valve seals) in the next year, or I might not. But if it self-destructs in the mean time, it owes me nothing.

On that same engine - because it is famous for sludging up and failing at under 100k miles, many people replace them with a 3.2 or 3.5 at the first sign of problems, or after a meltdown.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Roughly.

Then don't have it done there.

Charging retail for parts is less than honest?

Or; maybe there is other maintenance work being done that they're forgetting to mention.

Not unheard of. GM Quad 4 Ford small block V-8

Naturally, "looked okay" is the perfect technical metric to assess the belt by.

Dumb ass in town here ignored the recommendations to change the timing belt on his Isuzu Trooper when due. The belt broke, the valve bent, now the truck is headed for the junk yard.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Yeah - that's the aspect of timing *chain* with pump that I hate. If it were not for the water pump holding a gun to the head of the t-chain, you'd leave the t-chain alone for the life of the vehicle. *BUT* if you go in to do the pump, it would be wrong not to replace the chain and it's tensioner. I have given serious thought to just replacing the pump, but if I do do it, I will likely do the chain too.

I wish they would make gear given cams in cars. It probably would take a little R&D on the part of the auto makers, but it could be done. The ironic killer probably is that their initial costs would probably be higher even though the cost to the consumer over the life of the vehicle would be lower.

And how about a lifetime water pump that was driven thru a magnetic coupler (no seals to wear out)?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Hah! I don't even go back for warranty repairs and recalls. I have found that a lot of the recalls are b.s., and the time wasted and other costs of dealing with the dealer are not worth the risks of them creating a new problem and me just doing it myself with parts purchased from on-line discount dealers (or possibly aftermarket, depending). (one exception: computer reflashes - but then only if the "fix " is known to really fix a real problem)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Not totally different. The engine evolved which explains it now being an interference engine.

I like the part where the OP claims that there was no warning, it just went. Duh! Ever check the maintenance schedule? It's clearly called out to replace the timing belt and components at

105K miles. I wonder if he's related to dbu?

I just did the wifes 98 Intrepid 2 weeks ago. Laughably simple job. The surprise being; ChryCo does not offer a new replacement water pump anymore.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

You'd be cutting your nose off to spite your face with that criteria, because almost all of them are belt driven. And the ones that aren't belt driven are chain driven with water pump driven by the chain! Which defeats the purpose of using a chain! I'd like to see the list of cars that don't have either belt driven cams or chain driven with the water pump driven by the chain. The list would be *very* short - chances are you wouldn't like the choices.

Like I said in a recent post - I'd like to see gear driven cams. Those are *truly* life of vehicle - no if's and's or but's. Magnetically couple the water pump (to eliminate the seals) and otherwise design it (bearings, impeller) to last the life of the vehicle.

Problem: Initial vehicle cost would be a little higher (a show-stopper in the automotive world), even though overall life-of-vehicle cost to the consumer would be less.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

That is what many wind up doing when they approach it like you do. (see Bill Putney's post about the 300M)

Reply to
aarcuda69062

...Chrysler 2.7L (if it makes it past 100k miles - some people just swap it out for a 3.2 or 3.5 instead of chain and pump)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

That's actually only after the fact and there's valve damage. Now - for the 2.7L - known for serious sludging and catastrophic failure (even though mine is running like a champ at 200+k miles) - yes - people in the know often do swap those out for 3.2 or 3.5 as a pre-emptive measure rather than replace chain and pump and risk sludge failure anyway. (FWIW, the 2.7L did not come on 300M's, except in Europe, but it did come in many Intrepids and Concordes.)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

If by 'driver" you mean vehicle owner, of course it is. Scant few timing belts break before their scheduled replacement interval.

And when the chain breaks, the engine is at the end of its life. Long timing chains whip, to control the whip guides need to be used, those guides wear and allow chunks of the guide to fall to the oil pan where they can be ingested by the oil pump causing it to fail. Chains stretch, their pivot points wear, chains weigh more than belts sapping horse power and fuel economy. Even short non OHC timing chains fail; in the 60s, 70, and early 80s, you could damn near set your watch by when a Pontiac V-8 timing chain would let go, the early Buick V-6s were lousy also, Ford 302, Chrysler

318 and 360... all had roughly 100K mile life span timing chain/sprockets, which interestingly is typical timing BELT maintenance interval nowdays.

All designs are a compromise.

If you can't accept the responsibility of performing the maintenance when it's time. Otherwise, buy away.

Makes sense when there is an alternative. Classic example is ChryCo minivans; the 3.0 liter engine uses a timing belt, the 3.3 and 3.8 liter engines use a timing chain that is very long lived. The 300 cc displacement does not account for any significant fuel savings (if any) so I always recommend the bigger ChryCo built engines.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

I don't know how much of that thread you read, but when he initially bought the car and posted of his purchase, he was specifically warned to do the timing belt and pump.

Here's his first thread - almost exactly a year ago, 97k miles on the car:

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Scroll down to swalker's post.

The guy truly learned a lesson the hard way, and he realizes it. We didn't rag on him - we all felt bad.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

His codpiece provides equivalent protection.

Reply to
larry moe 'n curly

Looks like it went right over his head.

I'd have ragged on him... ;-)

When the SILs water pump let go on her Camry, I think my exact words were; "jesus f*$&ing christ Becky, WTF did I tell you?"

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Not exactly.

I assume that if one understands the concepts, he can work through the particular arrangement he migh tfind on his own car.

My experience is more in US domestic products, but I find that while the parts might change, the stuff those parts do remains pretty much the same. The physical arrangement changes a little bit, but the concept remains constant.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

You're a complete idiot. He did not ruin anything. He gave three specific examples of the answer to the specific question asked. I have not encountered these three engines, so I have never encountered a water pump drivne by a timing belt/chain.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

Millions? Give a specific example.

I have seen and worked on more cars and trucks than pretty much anybody save a professional mechanic. I have never in 50 years seen a Ford or GM product (passenger car or light truck) that uses the timing belt to drive a water pump. I nave owned 4 different Honda cars of various vintages, none of them drove the water pump from the timing belt. I have owned three Toyotas separated by 30 model years, and none of them drive the water pump with the timing belt.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

My oil pump experience is far more limited than my water pump adventures. I found that my oil pumps were driven by the same coupling that drives the distributor, which was driven by the cam shaft, which was driven by the timing belt/chain/gear.

I've not seen a water pump driven by a mechanism that can result in the motor not operating because the water pump's drive belt went back on wrong.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

On my vehicle the WP is NOT driven from the TB.

Reply to
dbu

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