Timing Belt Replacement

Then you would worry about the gears stripping or a shaft shearing.

Seriously, this discussion is good because it illuminates to those who are in need for a new TB what to expect and what to look out for.

I had one timing chain break on me in 49 years of driving and that was on my 1956 Chev six cyl. Fortunately it broke just after I traded it in for a used 1965 SS which turned out to be a pig.

My next was a 1969 MT car of the year, a Plymouth RR, that was a fine vehicle.

Reply to
dbu
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Every second generation ('98-'04) LH car*: 300M, Intrepid, LHS, Concorde). Probably the 1st gens. too, but I/m not as familiar with them.

*if you count timing chains too (2.7L)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

I didn't say that. Full retail for the belts is perfectly honest, but they can be found on the internet and in parts stores for up to 50 percent cheaper. The Gates TB can be had for $35 at NAPA, but the shop will get $65 as an example,, nothing wrong with it, but if someone is interested in saving money and can do the work themselves they can save additional dollars if they shop around.

In fear of that happening, that's why I changed mine. But NOT the WP.

Reply to
dbu

Generally - no. Subarus (mid-70's IIRC) used to have gear driven cams. It was truly bullet proof.

Unless you make the gears out of plastic like Ford and GM have done in the past. When I say gears, I mean made out of real metal. Only our automakers can take a bullet proof design, like gears, and make it so that it is likely to fail.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

GM; the 1.8 /2.0 liter OHC engine used in certain "J" chassis vehicles (aka the Brazil motor) The GM "Quad 4" engine uses a timing chain driven water pump, shall we include it also?) Ford; 1.6 and 1.9 liter engines used in the Escort, Mercury Tracer Chrysler; 3.2 and 3.5 liter V6 used in the LH, Prowler, etc. (the 2.7 V6 uses the timing chain to drive the water pump, shall we include it also?) Honda; 1.5 liter used in the Civic Toyota; 2.2 4 cyl and 3.0 V6 used for like forever

I think all together, that accounts for MILLIONS of vehicles produced

Then there's a LOT you haven't seen.

Means nothing.

You don't know what you don't know.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Actually, a better question is which vehicles _don't_ drive the water pump with the timing belt. It's such a cost savings to the manufacturer that most of them are doing this now.

Reply to
SMS

This discussion/your advice is specifically devoted to YOUR vehicle?

Reply to
aarcuda69062

It is certainly true that I don't know what I don't know, but I do know what I know.

I've never seen (while holding wrenches in my hand and bleeding from my knuckles) a water pump driven from the timing chain or belt. I suppose a few of them have passed my on the highway ...

I normally climb out from under my rock for a fresh view of the horizon on a very regular basis, and I assumed I would have encountered at least one instance of a timing belt-driven water pump by now. I guess I need to get out more.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

And so you drive a________?

Reply to
mack

Those 'plastic' gears left me stranded two times with a 1964 Ventura V8. I only had about 40,000 miles on it the first time and about that many more the second time. I bought that one new. I was told after I bought it by a shade tree machenic freind of mine that I would be lucky to get 50 K out of that gear.

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

Actually, it's recommended to change the belt at the proper mileage, since they can 'look' OK but be going bad.

That said, I took a look at the belts in my Legacy and decided they were OK

One of the worst engines ever made for people who ignore maintenance. On this car, you have to follow the schedule in the book, or... "now the truck is headed for the junk yard..."

Reply to
Hachiroku

There were also cars built in the 1990's that used chains where the chains often failed sooner than timing belts needed replacement, for example the Saturn S series which had so many chain failures that they were being replaced as preventative maintenance. Instead of a repair costing $100-200 (typical timing belt replacement cost when the dealer has a service special) you were paying upwards of $750 for a chain, tensioner, etc. It actually was "the engine lasted the life of the timing chain." However if the owner heeded the warning signs of chain problems, they were okay (increased noise). The problem is that many drivers don't realize there's a problem when they drive the car every day and the noise increases just a tiny bit at a time.

There are advantages to belts as well. They are quieter. They are more reliable for long runs (typical in many engines these days), and they are less expensive to replace.

Actually what would be good is to buy vehicles with non-interference engines.

Reply to
SMS

And yet, you made a pretty definite statement about the RARITY of belt-driven water pumps, as if to say that if you haven't seen something, it barely exists.

"I have never seen a waterpump driven that way, they have always been driven by a fan belt or the serpentine belt. It is far easier to drive a water pump from outside the motor than from inside, this would make it very rare to drive a water pump by using the timing belt."

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

Exactly how does such an engine differ from the other type?

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

I observed a long time ago how ironic it was that the very cheapest cars made (100% of *everything* coming out of Korea) - the very ones that were most likely to be owned by people ignorant of the absolute necessity to change the timing belt on schedule - had engines with timing belts *and* were interference design.

Interesting to look at the list of cars of Korean manufacture in the Gates Timing Belt Handbook - not a one without the asterisk next to it.

Intentional, or just happened that way?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

So?

Three of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of engine designs is rare.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

An interference type motor is one where the pistons and valve can collide in the event of a timing belt/chain failure. A non-interference engine is one where these parts do not run into one another.

As a general rule of thumb, if the compression ratio is high, then the pistons and valves can run into one another; if the compression ratio is low, then these vital parts will not get in each others space.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

No, but your discussion does not cover every vehicle made either.

Reply to
dbu

They can put relief divots in the pistons for the valve edges to clear, but my understanding is that that causes emissions problems.

Funny how in "the old days", compression ratios were a lot higher, and I don't remember this interference being a problem. Maybe it wasn't a problem because the cams were driven more reliably (short chains or gears, pushrods/not overhead cams), so we were not aware of the interference as a problem in and of itself, though technically the engines were interference design?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

The relief in the tops of the pistons can sometimes creat hot spots at the edges, which can cause knocking/pinging. The relief isn't there in case the timing belt/chain breaks; it is there because the angle of the valves prodruding into the combustion chamber would strike the piston under normal operatng conditions.

Back in the old days, if the timing chain broke, major engine damage was often the result, but although there were exceptions, cars often didn't last

200,000 miles, so some other failure retired the car before the timing chain broke.
Reply to
Ray O

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