1914cc Fast Engine!

After all the years. here I am. I got an AH engine case.. and matching heads. I bought the cylinder and head boring tool.. it's in the mail.
If it's right I am going to buy a drill press. I got parts out the yin yang and ready to burn the streets up.. I got a valve sping compressor coming and a crankshaft gear puller..
Here's what I am looking for 100+hp.. I just bought the how to hotrod and have dremel in hand. with tons of bits.. book is not here yet. I know from reading here the book is outdated but not the port and polish techniques.
I am going to bore this case for 94mm. I dont know if I should bore the heads for 94mm and try a self port and polish.. I don't know how to do the port and polish.. is their a new website?? it looks like one valve has a small crack, exhaust.. I was considering changing that one valve on these heads.. they are stock 1600cc from an AH engine. I am doing nothing but thinking. I was going to buy stock bearings, stock rods, 69mm crank.. and maybe an engle 110 cam?? some standard 94mm p&c's, and maybe should I consider some other heads.. or just change the one bad exhaust valve? or does it need new seats, guides, etc?? then.. I have a stock 34pict carb.. I was considering the 40mm dual brosols Serrano sells for $$325. I have a weird exhaust maybe extractor, with a stinger tip.. j-tubes.. I was thinking a turbo Gt muffler or dual quiet packs on it instead of the stinger.. maybe a fatboy muffller. am I going to get 100+hp?? Please direct me how to get 100+hp out of my case, and boring tool. I'm tired of my bug emberassing me. I don't care if I have to rebuild the engine every 5000 miles. I only put about 500 miles a year on it. I drive it only to play in the streets.
Keep in mind my vehicle has a running stock 1600cc DP engine.. it will never be harmed or touched in this process. I'm not stupid. It will sit in the garage untill all else (this engine project) fails. It is a 1960 but converted to 12v with new brakes, lowering spindles, 67 tranny etc.
I can't afford stroker right now. I can't afford counterweighed and balanced right now.
Is it possible? Any carb reccomendations or camshaft??
Do I need to look for larger valve heads? or is it even possible with stock heads?
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Invest on new big valve heads, the cheaper ones aren't..... expensive ;) Any heads you choose, will need extensive work, some of which you may not be able to do yourself. (most can't do it successfully). It makes no sense to put a lot of money and effort on a pair of old, faulty stock heads.
Buy a pair of used 041 heads for example, with 40x35.5 valves. Have them checked/rebuilt as needed, and bored o> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id30002
ep up to ut to 94mm. Some stock heads cannot be bored out that far to begin with.
Do not polish anytthing but the combustion chamber. Leave the ports "sandpaper rough". Do not open the ports up too much, mainly work on the intake port and just do a light smoothing on the exhausts. Keep the combustion chamber outline shape, do not make it wider if you need to remove material. Instead, make it deeper, the edges steeper. Remove material from around the valves. To make the chamber smaller, you have to flycut the heads deeper.
Since this is simply a playtoy, GO WILD with the cam. Forget the W110, step up to the big game, over 300degrees advertised duration. Your engine will be happy to rev up high, and the displacement supports bigger cams, as will the heads if you get the larger valves. Dual carbs highly recommended, but dual 40mm Brosols would also work.
Run a tight deck, and match the CR to the cam. Think along the lines of W130 (308 degrees duration) with 10:1 CR. (compared to the W110.. this would WAKE UP the engine) This is just a basic suggestion, there are more sophisticated cams out there too, in the over 300deg duration class.
No heater boxes, just run J pipes and a header exhaust of some kind, with a muffler. No stinger, those are for show only ;) (I don't like them)
Powerband will be strong up to 6k and beyond, redline around 7000. Yet it will be fully streetable, easy to drive slow and in rush hour traffic. Plus when built right, it won't overheat, and it won't need additional oil coolers, as long as you have a doghouse cooling system. (I do recommend doing the Type 4 cooler modification)
This combo will certainly break the 100hp limit, while still keeping costs under control. It may end up costing more than a couple of hundred, but you won't be disappointed. For your purpose, anything less would probably be disappointing.
Jan
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com kirjoitti:

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Jan wrote:

Back in the days when I worked with old racing (motorcycle) mechanics, they used to recommend polishing the exhaust ports to lower the cylinder head temp. Supposedly the smooth and shiny exhaust ports would evacuate the cylinder quicker and with less exhaust heat soaking into the head.
Now that was many years ago and while the fellows I'm referring to built some fast machines, this may have been "an old wives tale."
Using ceramic coatings in the the combustion chamber and exhaust port would do a lot more for keeping temps down.
Tony
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............My problem with this recommendation Jan is that this will be an ehgine that needs to turn up in the 3000 to 7000 rpm range to get its power and he's not ready or able to invest in a counterweighted crank, lightened flywheel, heavy pulley, dynamic balancing and maybe Bob Hoover's HVX case modifications. A high lift camshaft at high rpms with HD springs is really going to need those HVX mods for even a 500 miles per year scenario. Sounds like a grenade situation to me.
timmy
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Tim Rogers kirjoitti:

Tim,
I understand your concern, but he said he is willing to take those risks.
AND... I have builts countless engines like this, for street and race, and never had an issue. The race engines were MUCH wilder, winding up to 9500 and even beyond, with no counterweights. (1600). They were still fully streetable, idled at 800rpms, and pulled fine from there. Sure, you can REALLY tell when they come "on cam", the difference is huge.. but it doesn't mean that they are temperamental or weak at lower rpms.
The trick is to build it right... which is why so many people complain how poorly those things run. You HAVE to give the cam enough CR for it to work right, and you have to pay a lot of attention to details, getting everything just right. There is very little margin for error, unlike the wide margins in a stock putt-putt-machine. Just one seemingly minor issue is intake manifold diameter, and venturies with those Brosols.... trial and error, until you get it right. Too big ports and runners will kill mixture velocity, and the engine becomes sluggish and slow at lower rpms. Add to that too low CR, and it will be a real dog, until you hit 3000. :) It's easy to ruin heads in other ways too.
Now, dynamic balancing of all rotating masses is a MUST for this kind of an engine to survive. But that is true for all engines, I HIGHLY recommend it for stock rebuilds as well. Don't cut the wrong corner. Static weight matching of pistons, rods, wrist pins, rods, lifters and just about every other moving parts is also crucial. Small differences may be ok in a 4500 redline stocker, but the adverse effects grow exponentially when the rpms climb.8g weight difference in rods is acceptable by the factory, but it is almost a death sentence for a 9500 screamer. I set mine within 1g of each other, stock or high perf, all alike. It's easy.
On exhaust port polishing: If you feel like it, go ahead. It will prevent carbon buildup. Then again, if you do get carbon buildup due to rough exh. port surface, the carbon itself will work as a heat insulator. :)
Jan
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Ok back to the camshaft and CR. If that 130 may be too wild requiring alot of porting and tuning of the carb ( I am horrible at tuning the carb ) , then also getting the right compression ratio exact.. would a smaller cam like the 110 or 120 give me more room for error? I would like the engine to be fast, but I wouldn't want it to be so precise that I wont be able to do it. I have rebuilt a couple stock engines before, but never nothing like this. I really don't have much skills in this area, and will have to research every little thing as I go. Like the compression, shimming, porting, etc. If anything I was hoping for a mild porting, nothing extensive. This is kind of just a practice engine for me, to hold me over another year.
You speek of Brosol venturis.. and things. I realize these are cheap carbs, theyre so expensive too though. Are these carbs going to be a major problem to me, should I be looking for something else?
Jan wrote:

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Let me also add this too. I may have been misleading with my expectations of a fast engine. I like the idea of being able to say the engine has 100+ HP.. but I never really drive over 70 MPH. At the most I might run this up to 95 MPH down the highway a couple times for just a few seconds. I am more into fast acceleration, gforce pulling me back into the seat. Would this combo be good for that?
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

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and the new brosol kads from Serrano are 40mm, would a set of used 35mm solex be ok to use instead? or would that be a downgrade due to the MM?
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

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http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/images/turbo.jpg
easy....
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is that a turbo setup from turbo city?
Anton
Joey Tribiani wrote:

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AJ Simms.... ( www.lowbugget.com )
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That turbo looks sweet!!
Joey Tribiani wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com kirjoitti:

Yes, with a few comments... (lol)
A beetle is not designed for sustained speeds above 60mph. To maintain about 50-60mph on the highway uses around 30 horsepower. That is all you are using, no matter what kind of engine you have. A 300hp monster will just get you there a little faster :D
Beyond that, wind drag gets too high to be able to drive economically. The wind resistance grows exponentionally in relation to vehicle speed. If you doubled your speed from 50mph to 100mph or close, you would need much more than double the horsepower. 100 horses are easy to get out of that engine, but the original cooling system is only designed to dissipate the HEAT produced by a little over 50 horses. Any time you use more than that, the cooling system cannot keep up. You WILL overheat, simply because the cooling system is inadequate for that much power. Short bursts are ok, if you go back to cruising speeds fairly soon and allow the cooling system to get rid of the extra heat.
I wouldn't drive a beetle over 70mph for extended periods of time. You could make it easier on the engine by increasing the cooling capacity. Unfortunately it is not as simple as some people make it seem. The most common modification is to add an external oil cooler. Fine, so you managed to cool down the overheated oil back down to where your oil temp meter shows acceptable readings :) You can theoretically cool it down to room temperature, but still have the heads melting. Then they add an aftermarket add-on oilpan, increasing the oil capacity. So the oil takes a little longer.... to overheat :) Ok, so I'm exaggerating a little here. The oil is a major cooling factor for the engine, and cooler oil does help cool down every hot engine part it comes in contact with. But cooling the oil may hide other, severe problems that are causing the overheating. Fix those first, then buy yourself more highway driving time with the cooling add-ons.
You can increase the cooling airflow too, by using a larger crank pulley. The higher pulley ratio will spin the fan faster, while robbing an extra horse or two. BUT... your engine will spin up to 7000rpms, instead of the original 4500-5000. The fan can't take it. You already should consider a welded and balanced fan even with a stock size pulley.. or take your chances. A fan grenading at 7000rpms may destroy pretty much the whole engine and your decklid.
This engine will not use heater boxes, because they are too restrictive and cause overheating. You will block off the fanshroud air outlets that would normally provide air for the heat exchangers, that offers you "free" additional cooling air for the engine. Yay!
Boy I'm getting tired of typing... so I'll cut it short this time. HAHAHAHAHA
JAn
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com kirjoitti:

You should perform exactly the same tasks, no matter what you build. Even stock aftermarket heads usually require some work before installation, some cheap ones need so much work that it more than doubles the price if you have to have a shop do it.
I build them (what I think is) right, and promote it fairly aggressively. To me it's just dumb or lazy to not take the opportunity and time to do a good job, optimize everything.
The 130 does not "require" porting, but porting when done right, will improve the overall performance of the engine. Whether it's a 130 or a 110, it doesn't matter. Porting is still a good idea, as long as you know what you are doing. I can give more detailed instructions on some basic things to do, that aren't hard. It just takes patience and time. You don't need to do a lot of "pro race" porting if you buy decent heads, even fairly cheap ones. Usually the porta are already larger than stock. Making them "just bigger everywhere" will probably ruin the whole head. More work is done on the combustion chamber and the cooling fins, and flycuttig & boring them larger.
> and tuning of the carb ( I am horrible at tuning the > carb )
Then leave that to a pro. That is an absolute necessity, whatever carbs you use, they MUST be tuned properly. It doesn't matter if it's a mild (W110) or wild (W130) engine. Spend time and money on tuning that beast to perfection. It pays itself back in saved fuel and more power and better driveability.
> then also getting the right compression ratio exact.. would a > smaller cam like the 110 or 120 give me more room for error?
Not really, just a different CR target than the other cam. Stock cams were designed to be run with 7.4:1 CR, using any fuel grade available.
ANY performance engine should be optimized wherever possible, and that includes stepping up to higher octane fuel. The higher cost per gallon is saved in better efficiency, because it allows you to raise the compression ratio... which you need to make the most out of the cam.
If you run too low CR, the cam will not work properly at low and mid rpms, and it will waste a lot of fuel.
If you have too high CR, the engine will ping/detonate and overheat, possibly break.
For a W110 cam, you should target a CR between 8:1 and 8.7:1 (I say 8.5:1 is good).
For a W130, you need at least 9.5:1, but no more than 10.5:1 (10:1 is a good safe CR).
If you tried to run a W110 with 9.5:1, the engine would still make NICE power, but it would overheat severely every time you drive it. Makes no sense. (I did it anyway, just as an experiment on how high I could go... the heads eventually went through so extreme heat/cold cycles that they eventually collapsed, crumbled to pieces! They were new heads too. One lasted about a year longer than the other. But the puny little 1600 took a heavy 74 beetle to 115MPH with a stock tranny :) (It wouldn't start again after that, until it had cooled down for an hour)
So there's the answer for your margin of error.

That's the correct approach! Luckily you have the collective wisdom of all of us here at your disposal. Get 2nd and 3rd opinions on everything, and based on those, form your own. To be on the safe side, take the middle road... to narrow down your safety margins, use the high road..

Depending on what you buy, you may not need to do any. Just a visual check, maybe smooth out some casting seams and rough spots. That's easy, and will yield acceptable results, if the heads were anywhere near decent to start with.

I had a few of those. I pushed the envelope on my experimental 1600, tore it down every winter for a general inspection of wear marks and damage, and for further mods. I kept doing this for 5 or so years, to learn more. I did learn a few things the hard way, and I learned a few things that were against the "conventional wisdom" but they worked.
A few samples: American engine builders are generally afraid of two (related) tghings: Cam duration, and compression ratio. Most of them don't understand the relation fully, and even when they do, they are afraid of the more aggressive cams and CR. One reason must be product liability... build an ineffective slug, and it will run forever, and you don't have to see complaints due to breakdowns.. even if some idiot runs his high perf engine on 87 octane. (look at Gene Berg's suggestions... 6.5:1 CR for a srock engine! Almost a full unit below factory spec! It actually CAUSES new problems, including overheating and horrible fuel consumption....Yet he's been the ultimate guru for so manyt people for decades. )

Get a used, good pair. You can get used *real* duals cheap sometimes too. All you need is a pair of dual 40mm Dellorto DRLA's or Weber IDF's. Add the generic intake manifolds that everyone runs, plus a good hex-bar linkage. Often those come in the package.
I've seen used kadrons go for 100 bucks, complete with intakes, linkage, and filters. Too cheap to pass up, even if you don't need them, haha

Real duals are always better, you have one carb venturi feeding one cylinder, it does not see interfering intake pulses from the neighbor cylinder. You can also tune each cylinder individually for perfection, although it is rarely necessary to have them set up differently. You also get more power because they can flow more air. The Brosol/Kadron/Solex solution prevents you from using the last few horsies in the highest rpm range, otherwise they are a good low budget solution up to what you are planning.
Don't be afraid! Ask questions! That's what we are here for.
Jan

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Wow. haha wish I had your email address.
Ok so on to the 130. You say that when raced.. you can tell when it gets on cam.. I am assuming it may run not as good in lower rpm, but when it hits a certain RPM is right on with timing etc.. is that what you mean? The main question is would the 130 idle like a heap? or would it idle ok? I mean would it stay running at the stop light, or would I have to be on the gas? or are you leading me to a combo that I should only run to impress people and not worry about idle etc??
Will I be able to reach your CR with just shims.. or will the heads also need flycut?

I like your way of thinking!!! alot!!!

Please send me anything that you are willing. I looked at the link to heads on Samba you sent me today. Those are 041, but only stock valve size. He said all is stock. Is that ok, or do I need to look for the valve sizes you mentioned? Would his stock size valves work out ok?

you look, but 043 was the first number on both of my heads.

Haha, you are great. I'd love it to be a beast. I've had youtube videos of it on youtube for almost a year and no compliments of its stock drag racing status. they just compliment on the bug itself.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid 56070132
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid 11124160
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoida7251194
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoida7276870
for any of you myspacer'ers.. add me at
http://www.myspace.com/ab338
the top video in my myspace in my about me is my real "in the end" goal of my VW experience. the wheelie hops.
Jan wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com kirjoitti:

It's no secret: bugfuel at rocketmail.com
Most of this discussion may be of value to other readers however, so it is good to keep it here for them to read. I can go deeper into details with you by email, when we get into stuff that is more specific to YOUR engine.
Either way you want. I can continue by email too.

I mean that at low rpms, it would behave like a mild street engine, more power than stock but nothing to write home about. Once you hit 3000rpm, you begin to feel acceleration, and by 4000, you start feeling the WHOA! factor kicking in :) To get maximum acceleration, you need to use the gears to stay on the powerband. It is nice to drive below 3000, no problems whatsoever. The DIFFERENCE to over 3000-4000rpms is big, it's like you suddenly got 2 more cylinders.
In comparison, a similar engine with the W110 cam starts pulling earlier, smoother, and it just keeps winding and winding, up to about 5500-6000 rpms, where it starts to run out of breath. Horsepower curve starts to turn down at around 5000, although you might be able to wind the engine up to 7000 in first, maybe second gear. Nothing happens up there, you'd get better acceleration by shifting to taller gear earlier, to stay in the max power rpm. There is no sudden rush of power, just nice all-around useable daily driver torque. No need to shift gears as much. Much less power, but it is available at a wider rpm range. Very civilized. Very.... boring :) Of course the difference between this and your stock 1600 is huge already.

It will idle just fine, at 800 if you want it to. I'd recommend setting the idle speed closer to 1000 however, to keep the oil pressure up. You want to have good lubrication and oil flow to all the hot parts when you come to a screeching halt at the next red light.
It WILL have idle problems, if the CR was set too low!! (Guess why many big cam engines idle rough?)
I have built race engines with 345 degree and MORE duration, and they were fully streetable, idling at 800rpms. You could definitely hear it's a high performance race engine, but if you wanted to, you could just lift your foot off the clutch and slowly roll forward without touching the gas pedal. 1600cc too... 13:1 compression or more, depending on a number of factors :) I drove one of these on the street for 1-2 years myself.

Each engine is different. Case dimensions are different, head combustion chambers are different, etc... So there is no definite answer to that. I can tell you however, that stock based heads will have to be flycut to bring the CR up enough. Why? Because when optimizing the combustion chamber shape, you remove so much material that the CR drops significantly.

It depends on the heads you choose. Some are close to "ready" when you buy them new, some require several days of work.

It was just an example, to steer you into searching Samba ads. You may have to wait a long time for the good stuff, and have enough money ready for a very quick decision. The good deals go fast.
Jan
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Ok an update.
I got the boring and flycutter tool. It fits the case and everything.
I also found a 1961 Fiberglass "Manx Similiar Looking" Dune Buggy.
It came with 2 1600cc DP Engines..
So now I got a total of 4 1600cc DP engines.. 2 rides.. and this tool.
I've allready got the body off the dune buggy, ready to get started. It needs pans, and well everything. My plan is to put the engine I build in the Dune Buggy. I don't "really" have plans on keeping the Buggy forever. That is subject to change. I think it will be a good learning experience before I try to build something for the Bug. Who needs a bench starter when you got a Dune Buggy chassis in the yard!!
I did get this weird item.. the Dune Buggy had some stuff.. and several starters.. but this one thing.. looks like a starter, but has a bracket to mount flat on an object, not like mounting to the tranny.. and it has 3 prongs and a switch, prongs like you would run an extension cord to.. Has anyone ever heard of one of these? Is it an old bench starter of some sort? Here's a picture.
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1986/starterdr6.jpg
Here's a pic of the Buggy too :)
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1583/buggylagrandexp9.jpg
Jan wrote:

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I think I have seen some optional a/c starters for smaller 4 stroke gas engines on lawn/garden/snow removal equipment. So instead of pulling on the rope you just hook up an extension cord and hit the switch!
buggy has potential too! lol
later, dave (One out of many daves) http://vwdoc1.tripod.com /
snip

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If you dont mind me asking - how much were the bore and cutter tools and where from ?
Thanks Rich
kirjoitti:

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Sorry, I don't know where to get them new. I paid $175 off eBay(tm). Someone bought it cheaper, and I emailed to buy it after they got done using it for $175. Pretty good deal in my opinion. The first one I ever bought was $225 used, and it didn't even fit. That was about 3 years ago though.
tricky wrote:

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