Mechanic says my bus makes no sense: help

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:21:06 GMT, "Ilambert" wrote:

...no, actually, thats NOT what you stated. And, I would not have objected to this statement had it been the one you had stated. The key here is "stock cam(or maybe a Engle 100) And, although I still think a set of weber ICT's would be better, a stock carb could be configured (though not with stock jets at all) to run such a system. The problem is that he currently does not KNOW that he has a stock cam, and stock valve heads...and just slapping a stock carb on at this point would be (IMO) very foolish. He further has the benefit of living close enough to the builder to find out eithout guesswork the true specs of his engine. He has stated a limited mechanical ability, even something that to you or I might seem straightforward such as pulling the pulley and oil pump to see the cam grind, is prolly out. For these reasons, I recommended he take it back to the original builder (he was ready to pay a shop to tubne it anyways...might as well get some information at the same time). You have stated that you have built larger then stock engines before...if you have, and made them run correctly with a stock intake system, you should realize that jetting such an animal is not a quick nor simple process for an amature. True one could post engine specifics, and likely get a ball park range from someone on the net...for what worked for them at their altitude...etc. But you will still likely be spending time changing jets, buying jets, etc...true this will happen with any carb setup to make the most out of it...but again...there comes the advice to take it to the builder. While just slapping a carb on there may or may not be doable to the untrained rookie mechanic (remember he would have to drop the engione in his bus to remove the shroud to fit the stock manifold). If successfully installed...stock...as it likely would be....he would end up with a very lean runnign time bomb. I stand by my original...if not so politically correctlly worded assessment.

..Gareth

>

A mild performance 1776 would NOT run well with a stock solex, it would be way undercarburated and you'd only get low to middle range power. Hard to tune or tweak to get power out of it. Need much bigger main jet and larger idle jet too, for that engine, but the venturi is solid and cannot be enlargened. Main jet to venturi ratio would be weird. End result may not be so economical after all.

It would work best with two dual 40's, but an economical solution would be a set of Kadrons. Centermounted systems work too but the low end will be rough. Definitely needs intake manifold preheat. Vacuum signal, no matter what carbs you use, will be wrong for the distributor, therefore useless unless you know how to remedy it. (trial and error and tedious work but it can be done)

Jan

I was assuming (ya,I know)a stock or near stock cam.As you say,the cam grind will determine the carb limits.The type 1's I've built for buses were only

1700's(1640?),stock or near stock cams,ect.Even with 1:25 rockers they ran great(low end greatly improved).A 1776 with a 120 cam won't work and has no place in a bus daily driver.This time the mechanic has a point.Steve

Amen. When I was a kid I watched my father restore a couple of MGs -- a B and a TD, and I have a pretty good idea about the skills required, and enough sense to know I don't have them. Nor do I have the workspace or the tools. For me, it's best to let the men in the coveralls work on it.

But hey: with the benefit of this thread I'm learning more about the language of these engines, and I can now decipher the description of the engine on the invoice: "1776 longblock w/ new case, rbd. heads, Engle

100 w/alum gear, $950"

Does that make sense? What's "alum[inum] gear" refer to?

Alritty Then.Now that Mike knows he is the proud owner of a 110 cam,he can go with a re-jetted solex(with or without the 009) and have a good running bus,not a rocket true but affordable,and gain the peace of mind he deserves as a bus-a-holic.Good Luck.Steve

Thanks to everyone who has been pitching ideas in this thread.

I'm trying to make some educated guesses about the most cost-effective way make my 71 bus nice to drive. Those who have been following this thread know that I have a 1776 longblock w/ Engle 100 cams with 3,000 miles on it. It presently has one centermounted Weber 40IDF carb -- no chokes, no manifold preheat, runs rough, hesitates, poor mileage, doesn't advance far enough (18 degrees max). I have limited mechanical skills, so the work done at local shop. The following ideas have been proposed in this thread:

Option 1: Buy a second Weber carb at around $420 and mount 'em both. Cost for extra parts and to install, unknown.

Option 2: Kadron dual carb kit at around $349. Cost for extra parts and to install, unknown. Left over is this Weber carb.

Option 3: Stock centermount carb, tinker with jets. Again, this Weber carb is left over.

If I overlooked another good idea in the thread, I apologize.

Option 4 is whatever the shop -- VW Paradise -- might suggest. If it sounds sufficiently different than the ideas being floated here, I'll post it for feedback from this newsgroup.

Either way, advance and starting when cold need to be addressed. The Kadron option seems pretty good to me, as it is a full kit for not much money. But I don't know if it handles the advance/choke issues.

And -- Kadrons are a lot less expensive than Webers, aren't they? Is there any loss of performance or reliability that might matter to me, the Family Man who just wants an easy drive?

What does one do with a leftover carb? Doorstop?

..................As Gary pointed out, He'd have to drop the engine to change the manifold anyway so why not have VW Paradise install a set of ICT's or Kadrons? It wouldn't cost that much more for a set of Kadrons (less than $200 difference vs stock 34 PICT setup?) and it would run great for normal street use once they've been properly balanced and jetted. Like Jan said, the small dual carbs would run smoother on the low end and give more top end power as well. Putting a single 34 PICT on a 1776 even if does only have a 100 cam seems like a poor suggestion.........just my opinion.

......................Too much money and IDF's 'can' be troublesome for normal street driving.

...............A good cost effective way of getting the most out of your set-up.

..........................Stock solex 34's were never meant for anything but a stock 1600 in my opinion. They can work on your set-up but not very well compared to an ICT or Kadron set-up.

......................You should get a competent shop to set them up and don't be afraid to go back if they're not functioning as well as you'd like. Don't worry about the lack of chokes. A lot of people use them for daily driving and they have a good reputation for working good under most conditions. As others have said, use a strobe light to set the advance timing at about 30 deg at 2000 rpms when using a 009.

.........................Sell it on Ebay or in the local classifieds. The offroad baja and buggy guys like the single IDF and with the kind of use that they give them, some of them are probably looking for a spare set-up.

.................Another option that would work pretty well once its been jetted properly is the single weber progressive. For anyone who is dead set against having two carburetors, that would be a reasonable recommendation for Rocket's 1776 powered hippie bus.............

As opposed to Squirrel's rocket-powered hippie bus?

I'm pretty much settling on the dual Kadron approach. Seems to offer good performance at not too much money. Need to save some anyway, since whoever owned this bus before me stripped or disconnected ALL the smog control bits and, even though the bus is smog-exempt, I have a modicum of social conscience, and will want the stock '71 stuff re-installed or hooked up at the very least. And I'm paying for a new roof on the house.

Gotta keep things in balance.

Out here in San Diego county, where everything is presently ablaze and we've been asked to stay the heck off the freeways fer cryin' out loud, I've had to put my plans to take the hippie bus over to the shop on hold.

The usual fall wildfires will end in a day or so, then I'll have plenty of time before the beginning of the traditional winter mudslide season.

Mike,

I have to agree about the fact that your bus runs pooly because it has been modified. Truth be told, my 74 super beetle used to be much the same way. Once I put the stock air cleaner back in place, put the correct distributor in, and un-clogged the pre-heater tubes so that the carb wouldn't ice up, the thing started to run like a REAL car. Get in, turn the key..fires right up and off you go.

Unfortunately, tracking down the parts involves a bit of legwork on your part. I would advise you to do the work yourself. There just aren't enough people knowledgable about these cars anymore, and more than likely any shop you take it to is simply going to f*ck it up more than it is right now.

Most of the aftermarket intake manifolds that I've found don't have the pre-heater hookups in the right spot, and I have one at my house right now for a weber 32/36 progressive with NO pre heat. Nothing, nada, zip. There's just no way in the world to make it run right, it kept icing up on me. I should probably just throw it out. The stock intake with a clear pre-heat tube works perfect.

You can use a vaccum advance with the webber, there is a tube coming out near the mixture screws with a small flathead cap on it. That's your vaccum port. But at this point, if you want it to run right I would suggest getting a stock carb, stock intake and the correct distributor and putting it together like VW intended.

Chris

...................And here I thought that you were as 'unbalanced' as some of us other hardcore airheads.

.............sigh............you're not ready to leave the temple grasshopper.

.................uh..............He lives in the one part of the world where there are still a lot of good shops.....southern California.

...............Most is the keyword here.

carries weber progressive manifolds that do have the pre-heater pipe. Do yourself a favor and buy one.

...................He has a 1776 with an Engel 100 cam. VW never intended this configuration in the first place and he needs a carburetor set-up that is compatible with HIS engine.

Well, no. But it's all a matter of degrees. How many "normal" people

*with no mechanical experience* would even consider getting a 71 microbus and then, after finding out that it had been grievously mis-fitted with parts, would proceed further down the path of madness by finding out what brands and kinds of new carbs he needed to make it run right? The first shop I took it to didn't even want to work on it. I get points: I *could* have taken it back to the seller!

Yes, I'm clearly not as unbalanced as some here, but I do get funny looks from the less-adventurous I know. The Middle Way is the path.

(The first saving grace to all this is that my fiancee approves. The second is that this newsgroup exists, and that so many on it are willing to share their experence. The third is that my kids think the bus is totally cool.)

Those are a major pain to jet for these engines, they just won't work right. I'd stay away from them. Have more experience that I care to admit. You need to jet them overly rich to get them to work acceptably well and there goes your mileage again, not much gained in any way.

Used but good complete Kadron kits can be found for 100 dollars. I'd go that route. AFAIK, Solex jets are a perfect match.

Jan

.............Ignore them and let them keep driving their minivans & jeeps & hondas & three ton SUV's. You're on a higher plane than them and their jealousy & resentment is to be expected. Bask in the glow of their bad karma.

.......................That's one of the reasons that I keep owning and driving aircooled VWs. My 9th grader would be heartbroken if I got rid of them and got a stinking jeep............

Too late for stock carb and distributor to work exactly as intended, because th e displacement and cam have been replaced with parts that change the breathing (and thus manifold vacuum signal) of the engine. The internals sound like they were intentionally built for a Bus, that must be one helluva torquey engine. Easy to drive too.

The cam is on the very mild side of the scale, possibly the mildest performance grind out there. Don't have personal experience with that one.

Please keep in mind that what the owner is looking for is a simple solution. A stock carb with a stock manifold would seem just that, but as someone said earlier, replacing teh manifold is a PITA. Engine has to come out.. and because it will be done by a shop, it will cost..... cost more overall than just buying a used set of Kadrons and having them install and tune them.

Jan

Thanks for that pointer, Tim. Talking a look at that site has turned up what appears to be the exact kit on my car:

Same carb, same manifold w/ them preheat pipes.

Does this continue to look like a poor match for my engine?

-- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott

What kind of shape is the lower windsheild sill? I had to weld in a new one found from a donor vehicle it was so bad. The previous owner had fiberglassed over all the rust holes there. Oh.... I have a 1970 Bus.