No Oil Filter???

Oh yeah, and then you need to do this:

They are not there to pump air, although that might be happening to some small extent. They are in fact OIL RETURN grooves. In case oil tries to seep out from teh opening, it will HAVE to go right past and over these grooves, which when the engine is turning, are designed to "sling" the oil back inside.

Then you have to provide an alternative way to vent the case. The most common way is to add vents (hoses) to the top of the valve covers on each side. The hoses would run up to a breather box that would be located somewhere higher than teh engine oil level ever could go. Any oil mist that collects up there is returned back into teh case via a drain hose. The box itself is open to the athmosphere. You couldo hook it up to the air cleaners to get active crankcase vantilation which would work better.

Jan

Sadly, but it's true... Leroy the owner passed away, the store was alot for his wife not to mention going through the grief. I've spoke to Angel just weeks before they closed. Not sure what happened since. Trust me, they were very dear friends and I do miss the heck out of them. Even though I've been going to V-dubfolks in Irving and they are very nice, knowledgeable and treat me like a regular.... it's still not quite the same. It's been over a year, almost 2 since Knight's closed.

Narley Dude®

Now, you do know that the next item up for debate and dispute is oil filters. Not all filters are made equal. I personally use MANN W719/5 they are a bit more but better quality than FRAM by far.

Narley Dude®

[good stuff snipped]

Is there a reason why the engine wasn't sealed around the pulley end of the crankshaft in the first place?

Is venting around the pulley end of the shaft is part of the original scheme to get rid of crankcase gases? Or just an accidental side-effect of not spending the money for a proper seal? If the engine has a breather hose from the oil filler neck to the air cleaner, and if pulley end leakage is not an important part of case venting, then sealing it would not change the original scheme. Things would still be kind of stock, PCV-wise yes/no?

Prior to installing the sand seal, gases in the valve covers exit down around the pushrods and into the case. Then presumably up the hose to the air cleaner.

Jan's post -- and the pictures Shaggie helpfully provides links to -- describes adding breather hoses, one per valve cover, along with a breather box, that can be connected to the air cleaner. (Drippage back into the crankcase is provided). If the valve covers are open into the case via the pushrod tubes anyway, and if the case has a hose into the air cleaner . . . how does adding these new breather hoses change things?

I'm not questioning the practice as much as trying to understand why additional ventilation hoses and a breather box are added after a sand seal is installed.

addl venting is added to high performance engines, that generally develop more blow-by past the rings. This is due to higher RPM, and more power, since rings only seal part (most) of combustion pressure

the addl venting is added to prevent the crankcase pressurization in these applications. The stock engine is a budget engine, which is why the crankcase is designed to be replaced, and why the slinger seal is used. With no filter, the oil should be changed every 1k miles anyways, more often in dirty environments. If you add a real filter and real seal, you can extend this interval

John Aircooled.Net >

Ventilation? :)

Fresh (although dusty) air in from the pulley gap, and out through the filler neck breather tube. This is needed so the crankcase would ahve airflow through it, because it's the only thing that would let condensed water get out. Once the oil is warmed up to normal operating temperature, the water that's "embedded" in the oil will vapourise and the crankcase breathing transports this water vapor out.

When you turn the engine off, the temperature changes cause water to condensate again, inside the case. This gets worse in cold, damp weather when there's lots of water molecules in the air.

So it's not just a coincidence. Funny how everything about the seemingly simple engine has a well thought out purpose ;)

You would no longer have air flow THROUGH the engine, just a hose over a bottle mouth to provide relief for pressure pulses. (Which is better than nothing, and helps prevent oil leaks). Not enough to grab and blow WET air out of the engine.

Well, yes. Only there's probably more gases, inside the crankcase due to blowby, which to some extent is always present. So the gases in the valve covers have a hard time traveling *down* (hot air likes to travel UP) and against higher pressure. Especially since there's no passage for replacement air to come in, inside the valve cover.

Now when you add vents on the valve covers, whatever is in there will have a path to travel UP and out of the covers. What is inside the crankcase would get sucked in to replace the void. And the cycle starts to rotate. In through pulley gap, out through valve covers.

Don't ask me what happens if you still kept the original oil breather hose hooked up to the air cleaner. It will try to suck out air from the same space where the valve covers already are getting their replacement air from. It could work ok, I guess two outlets, with one suction helped or even all of them suction helped, could work ok. There still needs to be a path for the good stuff (oil mist) to condense or collect back to liquid and run back down into the case. That same path should be constructed in a way that water could not run back down it too.

I'm sorry I don't have definite answers to what is the best solution. Maybeo thers will chip in.

Air inside the valve covers is not moving much. There are no pistons there to create pulses, and there are no big leaks of pressure from the combustion present. So whatever is in side there, is pretty much standing still. The top of the valve cover would provide an outlet. For both hot air to escape through, and to even out pressure pluses that were created inside the case. (Pressure pulses don't "go" anywhere, they just flutter )

I could have just left you with :

1) to make up for the eliminated pressure relief passage 2) to enable air FLOW through the engine case so you'd get rid of gases and water vapor inside.

BTW I'm not very happy with the breather boxes out there. They do collect lots of water, but the water stays there and eventually overflows and goes back into the engine case. I'd rather use a direct hookup to the aircleaners to be able to get good vacuum, good FLOW, and BURN the gases. The oil mist in the air would get burned too, for the part that wasn't heavy enough to fall back on it's own.

My suggestion (if a Sand Seal Pulley was used) would be to run valve cover ventilation hoses directly into the aircleaner(s) and provide a way for replacement air to enter from someplace else. Like, disconnect the stock oil filler breather hose and fit a tiny air cleaner on it to keep dirt OUT. Air goes IN through one spot, and out another, carrying contaminants with it. Flow. Wow.

Some do it the opposite way, plain hose sticking up from the aircleaners, and a tiny air filter on top of it. Air would get sucked IN through them. The stock oil filler breather hose would remain connected to the aircleaner and would provide suction.

I dunno. Take your pick :D

Jan

Thanks John and Jan,

The light bulb over my head has developed a dim glimmer. I agree -- these little engines have been given a lot of thought.

The stock engine kinda sorta ventilates itself by drawing outside air in around the oil slinger and letting it get sorta sucked out of the breather hose to the air cleaner. This vents accumulated water vapor and blow-by. Hot gases under the valve cover sort of sit there, with a little huffing and puffing up/down the pushrod tubes.

Venting the valve covers allows hot gases a way out, to be replaced with whatever is in the crankcase.

All simple so far. But as Jan has mentioned, if we put on a sand seal, we still need a way to get clean outside air into the case.

Ideas so far (both per Jan):

1. Disconnect hose from case to air cleaner and install tiny air filter atop the case. Air goes in the top of the case and sucked out the valve covers.

1. Something which I do not understand, "plain hose sticking up from the air cleaners, and a tiny air filter on top of it. Air would get sucked IN through them. The stock oil filler breather hose would remain connected to the air cleaner and would provide suction."

How do more modern engines get clean air into the case?

OH MY GOD!!!!!! I'm on hold..... it was ANGEL that answered the phone. I'll keep you posted... YIPPPIE!~! You just made my day!

Narley Dude®

you do not need to get clean air into the case Mike. Air will move to the lower pressure from the higher pressure, right? If crankcase pressure is higher then the air filter, it moves from the crankcase thru the vent tube to the air filter and is sucked in and burned (H2O and HCs). If Pressure in the crankcase is LOWER then the filter housing (only during decelleration), then it moves from the filtered area of the inside of the air filter, to the crankcase.

Does this make sense? The only time you need to "filter" the breather tube is if it's ventilated to the air and not the air filter, which we have already suggested is not a good idea anyways.

John Aircooled.Net Inc.

KNIGHT'S UPDATE:

A company called Foreign Car Parts bought Knight's old phone number (and website) that is how I got over to them. Their address is 10711 East N.W. Highway in Garland. It's not at the same old location. Angel now works for them, he told me that he does have occasional VW parts... minor stuff, nothing like the inventory they had. Dave works somewhere in Roulette... (I really never cared too much for him... always dealt with Angel and Leroy) Terry (Leroy's wife) still lives in Forney but in a different house. She works an administration position for the Forney schools and is doing well. It's good to hear that they all have moved on and are doing good. That's all I got.

Narley Dude®

Oh man. :(

It doesn't seem like that long since the last time I was there. I guess time passes fast when you're not paying attention.

Hmmm. Web page is still up.

Hm. So we install a real filter, slap on a sand seal, make sure we have a hose connected from the oil filler to the air cleaner and we are good to go? Dust our hands off, consider it a Job Well Done . . . and our oil changes now become less frequent?

Sounds too easy!

EXACTLY! But it's amazing how many shops can't do this.

John Aircooled.Net Inc.

I'll be darned. It does beg the question, though, which I asked a little way up this thread: Why didn't VW put a seal there?

Jan says, "Ventilation?", and offers some good thought on that.

I proposed: $$$?

That sounds absolutely beautiful... in theory. But you need air

*flow*... which you can't get from a sealed engine case through that single outlet. Pressure does not mean volume. Pressure inside the case is not constant, it's pulses. Quite rapid pulses, but still.

You have to replace the air you suck out somehow. If the container is sealed, you can't.

And if you have enough blowby to create noticeable constant airflow.... then you have other problems to worry about, far more severe than case ventilation issues... :D

Jan

the case ventilates thru the PCV even with a seal, putting filtered air into the case if required.

I am assuming they omitted the seal because it's a budget car and budget engine.

John Aircooled.Net Inc.

Jan,

the air is coming from the tube attached to the filtered side of the air filter. It's an open pressure system, but filtered.

Anyone that wants to experiment with this, disconnect and plug your crankcase breather tube and go for a drive. :-)

John Aircooled.Net Inc.

Positive Crankcase Ventilation system. It's one of the places where fumes are collected from, and routed through a charcoal canister, then purged into the intake manifold so they get sucked into the combustion chamber and burned.

Modern car engines are fully sealed units like that. The only way for dirty air to get it is when you take the dipshit out or open the oil filler cap. The rest is a controlled closed environment.

On my subaru, the crankcase has constant vacuum. When I pull the dipstick, the engine rpms drop. Not by much, but just so I notice.

A set of valves and solenoids and sensors tell the system when to suck, when to close the valve, and when to release the collected fumes into the manifold.

Jan