300C and Magnum cars -- First impressions from NAIAS (long)

I was lucky to be able to attend NAIAS on Thursday night for the industry preview night. I attended a design review for the PT Convertible and Chrysler 300 series while I was there. I also had the opportunity to sit in both the 300C as well as the Magnum, plus take in the rest of the show with only a few hundred people around, rather than the usual 40,000.

Ralph Gilles, design chief for the LX series, did the presentation on the

300 series, using a 300C for demonstration purposes. For those of you who've seen the pictures of the car at the NY auto show, or in the magazines, let me tell you, it looks very good in person. He said it's actually 1" shorter in overall length than the current 300M, but I can tell you, you'd never know it unless somebody told you. The car presents a stocky, muscular appearance, but it's not short at all; the so-called 'H' line that runs along the top of the front fender stands quite tall compared to the current LH cars. The detail in the headlamps is very intricate, and Gilles said he was particularly proud of how they turned out. Apparently one of the guys on his team that did the work had been a jeweler in a previous life, and it shows.

The grille is large, and is the love-it or hate-it part of the car's design. Personally, I love it, but I can see where it would be a turn-off for people. Gilles said they wanted to make a statement with the grille, and they chose its large, bold appearance to give the car character. Love it or hate it, it does that in spades. I'm reminded of the reaction I had back in '97 to the Sebring's grille; it seemed large and plasticky to me, and I thought, gee, that will never work out. But it grew on me, and I think that if you don't like it, give it some time and you might change your mind.

There are four trim levels offered: a base, two mid-level versions, and the

300C. The Hemi will be available only in the 300C which starts out at $32K and change. They made a big deal about the value for the price, by the way, I guess the Pacifica misadventure still smarts. Fully optioned with all the stereo equipment, navigation system, supplemental air bags, etc., it will easily approach $40K. The mid-grade versions get the 3.5L V6, and really the two are the same car with the more uplevel version getting all the electronic goodies. You can easily option either of the mid-grade versions into the price range of the 300C, if you add all the air bags, Sirius stereo, etc. The base car gets the 2.7L V6 and a cloth interior with hubcaps. I seriously doubt they'll sell too many of these equipped this way, but my understanding is that it will start in the $23-$25K range. With the 3.5L versions starting around $27K, I'd be hard pressed to see why you'd go for the 2.7L. I guess AWD will be available soon, but not at first.

The interior is very nicely done. The Magnum and the 300 series share the same interior with only minor trim differences, and a slightly different 'center stack' in the dash above the radio/HVAC controls so the 300 can have an analog clock like the 300M does. The electronics were disabled on the stand, so they had somebody crawl in through the back seat passthru to release the rear decklid. From 5 feet away, I'd say the trunk has room very similar to my Intrepid. The ignition switch is on the dash, and there's a control stalk mounted above the turn-signal stalk that controls lighting and cruise control, IIRC. The wiper control is on the turn signal stalk. It seems like a good choice to keep it there. There's the usual center console with storage cubby which integrates rear HVAC outlets, and a glovebox. Really, nothing revolutionary in the dashboard design, just a good execution of the standard concepts.

Rear seat room is excellent, and the front seat is just as good. You really do 'slide into' the car, rather than dropping into it; the seats are a skosh higher than what you're used to in a passenger car. It isn't quite high enough to give you the same view of the road you have in a pickup or a minivan of course, but it felt like it will be considerably better than the view from the LH cars. The beltline of the car is very high, and the side windows are not very tall at all. I wasn't in traffic, of course, but I don't think that visiblity is going to be a big problem. The view out the front and rear is excellent, although I didn't think to check for blind spots. You can see the hood quite well, but it's unobtrusive.

The LX car I like the best is the Magnum. A lot has been said about how disappointing it was that there won't be a Dodge sedan version, and I was of that same mind right up until last night. I realized once I got to crawl in and around it that this is an outstanding form factor for that vehicle, and I think that it's going to sell very well. For me, it's good enough to make me forget about wishing for a sedan.

For one thing, purge any Country Squire associations you might have in your mind. The 'wagon' portion of the vehicle is much shorter than that -- think more like 'Malibu Maxx' than any of the old Coronet-based machines you might have in mind. The space in the rear is very useful -- I'd say it has roughly the same floor dimensions as the trunk in the 300 -- but it's much more accessible with the rear hatch. The rear hatch itself is quite substantial, with the topmost portion of it extending about 12 inches into the roof. There is a hide-away compartment under the floor, and also a windowshade-style screen that hides stuff inside from view through the windows. It's truly a sporty wagon, much more so than the Pacifica, IMO.

The car overall looks *far* more powerful and imposing than any of the car-based SUVs. It has a tremendous stance, and a really menacing view from the front -- you'll react to seeing one of these approaching fast in your rear view mirror the same way you do today to seeing a Tahoe or a Ram. One of the things I like most about vehicles is when you have the option of having a fairly basic interior package coupled with the largest available engine. The RT version is just that. The car I sat in was candy-apple red and equipped with the Hemi, yet it had a cloth interior and a 'just enough gadgets' package -- CD player, tilt, cruise, interval wipers, power locks, seats and windows, and trunk release. I might also have had an overhead console with a Homelink transciever, but I'm not certain about that. Of course, you can get all the leather/sat nav/bluetooth goodies if you want those things. As far as I'm concerned, they're just extra weight.

My only carps? Well, I had a few. Gilles made a point of saying how the chromed gear selector was supposed to be part of the car's ornamentation. I wasn't terribly impressed; I would've favored a leather-wrapped shifter like my current Intrepid has. The front overhangs on both of these cars are somewhat low; I expect that drivers will have to be careful around curbs and parking blocks. The wheels and tires are *huge*, and although it works well in the design (the Magnums look like super-sized Intrepid ES wheels), I would expect the tires are going to be costly to replace. With 340HP on tap, that might turn into a real concern. We didn't get to peek under the hood of a Hemi Magnum (they had removed the release cable), but we were allowed a quick peek under the hood of a 300C. From a distance, I couldn't tell you about serviceability, but suffice it to say that the V6s looked a little cramped. (If it's anything like the Durango HEMI, it's going to be an exercise in patience to get to the rear sparkplugs, but not nearly as bad as the current minivans.) The Hemi has a large decorative engine cover with a HEMI logo on it in large block letters that looks identical to the one on the front fender of a '71 Roadrunner. One thing I couldn't do was adjust the power seats in any of the cars I sat in; they had the batteries disconnected. Somehow the foreign makes managed to arrange things so the dashboards were lit up and the stereos playing, so I don't understand why DCX couldn't do the same. Still, I'm just under 6', and with the seats all the way back as they appeared to be in the Magnum, I had a hard time reaching the pedals, and there was still room for me to sit behind the driver's seat without being cramped, so they've packaged the interior very well.

Later that evening, I happened across Mr. Gilles while looking over the VW Phaeton in the downstairs exhibit. I asked him what he thought of a $60K VW, and he replied that he thought it was fabulous, which I guess it was. He said he'd love to have the chance to work on something like that, and I guess what designer wouldn't like to have a $60,000 price point to work with? I told him I liked his cars, and had gotten over being upset about there not being a Dodge sedan, but I still wondered if they might do one in the future. He kind of smiled, and said, well, I can't say, but put it this way, if you had all the stuff you needed to do it, what would you do?

About 15 minutes later, I saw him snap a photo of a customizer's two-door PT hardtop in the downstairs display area. Given that the PT 'vert is a two-door body, it made me wonder...

So, how was getting to see the auto show with only a few hundred people, plus getting to meet the design chief on the eve of the LX car's introduction (and also resist the urge to upbraid Automobile Magazine's Jean Jennings for their foreign bias)? It was a banner night!

--Geoff

Reply to
Geoff
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Did you ask him how many designers left chrysler since the Daimler takeover? Or about general design team morale? Or about Chrysler-Daimler design politics?

How close are they in meeting the targets for Merc parts inclusion?

Did you ask him if it was enjoyable to be given an SUV platform and make it look like a sedan?

Reply to
MoPar Man

Yeah, sure. Take the opportunity to beat up on the guy for something he had nothing to do with and no say in. That's reasonable behavior for a mature adult.

He was a nice guy, and very gracious to even speak to someone he didn't know and who didn't have press credentials. Funny, it didn't occur to me to attack him.

Don't get me wrong, I think the merger stinks. A court of law will decide whether or not it was a fraud. I'm waiting anxiously to find out what it decides. No matter what the decision, though, I'm going to accept it.

Why would I? It's a great-looking *car*! Besides that, where are you getting the idea it's an SUV platform, anyway? It's no more an SUV platform than a '71 Charger was. Or a '69 Newport. Sure there's going to be AWD variants. Does that mean that every Subaru is an SUV? Does that make the Audi Quattro vehicles SUVs? I think not.

Oh, maybe you're referring to the Hemi driveline that's also used in the trucks. The old Hemi saw use in a variety of industrial applications. Are you saying it was somehow less of a musclecar engine because of it?

Perhaps you're talking about the fact that the LX vehicles are RWD? Need I remind you that the LHs were designed to be capable of this? Was the Prowler a truck?

Being bitter and angry about the merger/takeover only works for so long, bud. If you don't like Chrysler and Dodge products anymore, that's your right. Maybe you should change your handle to 'Old Moparman' or 'Former Moparman'.

--Geoff

Reply to
Geoff

Those are tame questions. How or why would you interpret them as "beating up on the guy"?

Again, please point out exactly how those questions could be interpreted as an attack on him personally.

You're wrong. As I posted hear a week or two ago, Chrysler is trying to buy it's way out of this law suit by paying shareholders $300 million (or effectively $.37 per pre-merger Chrysler share). The offer was mailed to Chrysler shareholders a few weeks ago.

What choice do you have? How does it matter to you anyways? Is your last name Kerkorian?

Does that mean your dislike of the "merger" will turn to happiness and approval if the courts throw out Kerkorian's suit?

The year-2000 300-hemi concept was a *BETTER* looking *CAR*.

Is the Pacifica a car or an SUV? Is the Magnum a car or an SUV? Is the current 300M a car or an SUV? Was the year-2000 300-hemi concept a car or an SUV?

The LH platform was designed for RWD. Why couldn't they have built the new 300 around that platform, and throw in the Hemi?

Is it a good thing that Chrysler has finally introduced a RWD V-8 in a passenger car? YES. Is this *really* a sedan or is it more like a cross-over SUV with a sedan skin? YES. Does it have taller seating, a higher belt-line, more angular and larger (boxy) profile, more fitting for a cross-over SUV? YES. Have the auto journalists said the same thing? YES. Is it a good thing for North American buyers that this 300C will have quite a bit of expensive Mercedes parts in it? NO.

So why didn't chrysler make the RWD switch (with a V8) with the LH platform and get a few more years out of that platform? Why did they spend hundreds of millions to come up with the SUV-ish LX platform?

The take-over of Chrysler by Daimler by itself is not the point. The bitterness among many die-hard Chrysler enthusiasts is really what Daimler had planed for Chrysler since day 1. Daimer really has axed any attempts by Chrysler to continue to develop any true muscle cars and sports-luxury sedans so that Chrysler doesn't end up building anything to compete with Mercedes. Yes, some will say that's good business sense. I say not, because those that want a true sports-luxury sedan will not necessarily buy Mercedes - they have lots of choices (less expensive and better quality). In the mean time we have Chrysler sedans that are more SUV-ish or truck-ish in their configuration and appearance.

3 years ago many MoPar fans were nuts about the Hemi-300 and Dodge Charger concepts. What we have now is nothing like those concepts. That makes a lot of people bitter.

The Mercedes ME-12 concept is nothing but pure noise designed to give Chrysler some hype at auto shows this year because of Chrysler's wasteland of concepts and production vehicles on display (unlike GM and Ford).

Reply to
MoPar Man

Geoff:

Thanks for the review - it must have been awesome to be at the show without all of the crowds.

I've had a chance to see both the 300C and the Magnum at a couple of DCX Dealer Events - I love the 300C and hate the Magnum.

I'm pleased to read that you like the Magnum - hopefully I will be wrong and there will be a market for that car. Based on age, income and education, I am right in the middle of where DCX wants to be with that car and I hate it - I would never drive a Station Wagon.

In my opinion, they should have built the 4-Door Charger concept instead - hopefully that will be the sedan model that Mr. Gilles hinted at.

Thanks again for the review - it should be an interesting year for DCX.

SBH

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Reply to
Scott B. Hogle

"Geoff" wrote, in response to MoPar Man:

I think "Grumpy Old MoPar Man" would fit better. His continual grudge against Chrysler because they are no longer Mopar, and the inability to buy his "what-used-to-be" cars because technology has improved, causes him to argue with anyone who likes the new Chrysler vehicles. Yeah, I am far from happy about the rape of Chrysler by Daimler, but I will not allow it to give me a "hardon-against-the-world" attitude it seems to have given him.

Reply to
RPhillips47

We all know the recent history of Chrysler. Some of you think the merger was necessary for Chrysler's financial survival. Some of you think Chrysler's vehicle design program is as independant now as it was before the merger. Others believe the merger wasn't necessary, and that Chrysler's vehicle design program is controlled by Daimler to the advantage of Mercedes. I happen to believe this.

I believe Chrysler could be offering a different mix of vehicles with better customer appeal if it was allowed to. If Chrysler hears this often enough, perhaps it will lead to a change. This is a public forum that Chrysler may very well observe. If you think Chrysler has taken a design turn for the worse, but think it's not something to dwell upon, then you are not doing the Chrysler heritage any help.

Yes, I can choose not to buy my next vehicle from Chrysler. But I can continue, at every turn, to tell Chrysler (perhaps indirectly) why I haven't, or won't, give them my business, or what I think is wrong with their vehicles. Others who love the new vehicles will, quite rightly, say so.

Plymouth is gone. The Chrysler/Dodge car line is shrinking. The LX body has emerged as a platform for both sedan's and psuedo-SUV-ish vehicles. This does not enable Chrysler to build my idea of a 4 or 5 passenger sports/luxury sedan or (or even 4 passenger 2-door sedan) that would have been a natural progression from the lines of the current 300M (ie low, sleek, curved, cab-forward). Why this couldn't have been done, with the LX platform given to Dodge for it's sedan's and wagons, is a valid question.

Reply to
MoPar Man

Reply to
mic canic
300C with Hemi starts at MSRP of $32999. No, it's not in competition with the Mustang.

Apparently

ornamentation. I

Reply to
Sam Man

I can tell you that. What has happened is Damlier has looked at the North American market and seen that there's 3 kinds of vehicles that sell. The first are the $30K SUV's The second are the $18-20K sedans. The last are the trucks.

Damlier cannot figure out why the $30K vehicles are selling nor can they figure out why the trucks are selling. They live in Europe which does not have the room or space for such vehicles, and cannot grasp the mindset. They understand why the cheap $18-20K cars are selling, but they want out of that market, the margins are too thin for their liking.

They have the truck and jeep market covered well enough to make money, they want to go after the $30K SUV market. But because they are Europeans, they just cannot wrap their minds around the idea of going whole-hog and producing a behemoth like the Ford Expedition. So instead they are producing these watered-down SUV things that probably cost the same amount to produce as a typical $18-$20K sedan, and hoping the American public is dumb enough to fall for it.

You forget what Mercedes is all about. Mercedes is about selling cars that have snob appeal but are cheap to manufacture, and thus making giant profit margins. That made a lot of money for Damlier and they are trying to turn Chrysler into the same kind of thing.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

Reply to
mic canic

Ok, here's what's happening.

First, look here:

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in full below) Price range of the new 300 line is from $23.6k to $33k.

What we have here is the Mercedes 300 series made by Chrysler. From an entry level model to a near luxury model this is the "Mercedes-ification" of Chrysler car models that I spoke about earlier. Just like Mercedes, we have the same car with different engines, brake and drive-train options, upgraded interiors and electronics. This particularly European (or German) trait to offer cars like this means the end of the characteristic bold individuality in Chrysler's car styling that was really one of Chrysler's strengths.

Perhaps the Germans haven't fully realized that Americans (and CDN's) expect visually distinct models to differentiate the price points within a car line. Or perhaps Daimler doesn't care and is just doggedly going ahead and forcing Chrysler down this path. In any case, the market will decide if this strategy will be successful.

I will say that getting a RWD V8 for $33k is an absolute steal, when you consider that the 300M started at $29.5k in '98 or '99 and the current 300 Special is what- more than $34k?

What will this do to the sales of other cars, like Ford's LS with the V8 option? Doesn't that car push $40k ?

But a V8 300 for $33k means something's got to give, and if the interior quality and road noise is comparable to, or better than, the current 300M then that will be impressive. But the profit margin on something like that must be pretty thin.

I think Daimler was traumatized by the early poor sales of the Pacifica and this might esplain the low price of the LX-300 line. But consumers will still expect rebates and Chrysler must show extreme discipline to not offer them, otherwise it's a slippery slope down to where they don't want to be.

----- Begin copy of above link ----

Press Release Source: Chrysler Group

All-New 2005 Chrysler 300 Starts Below $24,000 Monday January 5, 2:34 pm ET Lineup includes 5.7-liter HEMI(R) V-8 with Multi Displacement System

DETROIT, Jan. 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Chrysler Group today announced U.S. pricing for its all-new 2005 Chrysler 300. With rear-wheel drive, an available 5.7-liter HEMI® V-8 engine and best-in-class interior space, Chrysler 300 redefines the classic American car. The base Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) for the new Chrysler 300 is $23,595, which includes destination. The new 2005 Chrysler 300 will begin to arrive in dealerships in the spring.

"With the all-new 2005 Chrysler 300, the premium is in the product, not the price," said Jeff Bell, Vice President, Chrysler/Jeep Marketing, Chrysler Group. "The all-new Chrysler 300 is a $1,130 better value than the exiting 2004 Chrysler Concorde LX."

Chrysler 300

The Chrysler 300 is a well-equipped, elegantly styled vehicle consumers will be proud to own. At just $23,595 including destination, the 2005 Chrysler 300 features the fuel efficient 190 horsepower

2.7-liter V-6 engine, with a four-speed automatic transmission. All Chrysler 300 models include an 17-inch wheels, eight-way power driver's seat, manual tilt/telescoping steering column, a premium cloth interior and body color mirrors, door handles and moldings. Also available are self-sealing tires, power adjustable pedals, four-wheel disc antilock brakes, all-speed traction control, electronic stability control, emergency brake assist and the first Original Equipment Manufacturer application of Boston Acoustic Premium Sound System.

Chrysler 300 Touring

The Chrysler 300 Touring is the second model in the 300 line-up adding luxury content to its stylish package. This package includes the high output 250 horsepower 3.5-liter V-6 engine, 17-inch aluminum wheels, fog lamps, four- wheel disc antilock brakes, all-speed traction control, electronic stability control, emergency brake assist, chrome accents inside and out, and leather seating for $27,395 including destination.

Chrysler 300 Limited

The Chrysler 300 Limited adds premium content to the Touring Edition that is both elegant and affordable. For $29,890 including destination, the Chrysler 300 Limited features as standard 17-inch chrome clad aluminum wheels, electrochromic mirror, automatic headlamps, heated seats, power passenger seat, express-up and down front windows, dual-zone automatic temperature control and reconfigurable information center.

Chrysler 300C

The Chrysler 300C marks the return of the HEMI® engine, paying homage to the 300 letter-series lineage 50 years ago. At $32,995 including destination, the Chrysler 300C features the 340 horsepower HEMI V-8 engine, mated to an electronically controlled five-speed automatic transmission with AutoStick®. All Chrysler 300C models feature dual exhaust tips, large performance disc brakes, unique chrome exterior appearance, patented tortoise shell interior highlights, power tilt/telescoping steering wheel, rain sensing wipers and Boston Acoustics six-speaker 288-watt digital amplifier sound system. Self sealing tires, adjustable pedals, seven-speaker 380 watt digital amplifier, GPS navigation radio and high-intensity headlamps with washers are also available.

The 2005 Chrysler 300C will be the first modern production vehicle in North America to feature cylinder deactivation when it goes on sale in the spring of 2004. The Chrysler Group Multi Displacement System (MDS) seamlessly turns off the fuel consumption in four cylinders of the

5.7-liter HEMI engine when V-8 power is not needed. This provides a world class combination of performance and fuel economy.

All Chrysler 300 vehicles feature a short-long arm (SLA) front suspension system combined with a five-link independent rear suspension to provide excellent handling and a comfortable ride.

"The bottom line is that the Chrysler 300 is stunningly affordable," continued Bell. "Chrysler 300 will attract domestic and import, mid-size and full-size vehicle shoppers, who might not have considered any Chrysler premium full size sedan before."

All Chrysler 300 vehicles come with the Chrysler Premium Care Plan first introduced on the 2004 Chrysler Crossfire and Pacifica. This plan entitles owners to a no-charge loaner vehicle any time scheduled maintenance or non- body shop repair is required during the initial three-year/36,000 mile warranty period. This, combined with 24-hour towing assistance, ensures that a Chrysler customer will not be left stranded.

The Premium Care Plan includes: * 7 year/ 70,000 mile Powertrain Limited Warranty * 3 year/ 36,000 mile Basic Limited Warranty * Complimentary loaner vehicle for scheduled dealer visits * 24/7 towing assistance

The all-new Chrysler 300 is built at the Company's Brampton, Ont. (Canada) manufacturing plant along with the all-new Dodge Magnum.

MSRP Destination Chrysler 300 $22,970 $625 Chrysler 300 Touring $26,770 $625 Chrysler 300 Limited $29,265 $625 Chrysler 300C $32,370 $625

Reply to
MoPar Man

The Pacifica is outselling everything in it's class... What the hell are you talking about?

If you want a Mustang get one. It'll help the economy. Just stop bashing Chrysler please....

Reply to
Sam Man

Would you like to expand on that?

DAS

Reply to
Dori A Schmetterling

Uh, no. The GT's V8 will produce 300HP, not 350, and will start at $25K.

LX cars are not competition for the Mustang, except maybe for you.

--Geoff

Reply to
Geoff

"Ford bragged that the muscular Mustang is the only car with a

300-horsepower, V-8 engine that costs less than $20,000."

Quoted from:

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Reply to
MoPar Man

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I was there for the live presentation. They said a GT will start at $25K.

--Geoff

Reply to
Geoff

You forget one minor detail in your story:

Chrysler wasn't making any money and no matter how good or nice their ideas were, they were dead wrong. I don't like this any more then you do, but in a market economy sales matters instead of design.

Martin

Reply to
Martin Boer

really? seen billy boy on local detroit tv bragging about the new shelby being

17k

M> Geoff wrote:

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Reply to
mic canic

I'll leave it to you to talk to any of Damlier parts vendors who will inform you of how Damlier's buying power is used to extract every last bit of blood from them. Cheap parts make for cheap manufacturing costs make for lots of money for Damlier. This is why mergers work - they allow the combined company to make money by forcing the suppliers to cut their prices.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

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