Well, John, I disagree, but then you weren't the one that bled the system and restored the freeplay on that rented 20k pound forklift, were you?
The clue for me was that it got progressively worse as the drivetrain warmed up.
One thing has to be remembered about anything made by human hands; it can do things it isn't supposed to do.
-- Budd Cochran
Tom, if equal pressure is applied on both sides of a piston, which way does it move?
Now, again, there are flow controls in the circuit, the front and rear of the piston are interconnected and the fire would have heated the retract side of the piston first.
Come on, why did it do what it did?
But you have anyway.
In today's environment, probably. That factory is now a non-smoking establishment, even though the air is cloudy with oil smoke. Back then it wasn't and the worst he could have been charged with was negligence with the butt. The real problem was the oily mess.
Tom, are you going to start this kind of stuff again? I supposed now you are the expert in all hydraulics system malfunctions as well . . . .
Ok, How about forklift systems ( sorry, but technically, they are still "automotive " systems), heavy truck, or our old 56 Plymouth wagon that had an optional hydraulic operated clutch. It adjusted the same as mechanical linkage, had a freeplay clearance of about 3/4".
Really? I used to and I knew it, and I corrected myself.
Budd
Just an FYI, Max, I HAVE seen a poorly bled system cause clutch slippage.The forklift mentioned previously had been damaged in a transport accident ( fell off a semi and rolled down embankment near Indianapolis) and the bellhousing broke along with the engine brackets, severe damages under the floorboards.
The truck was enroute to the factory where I worked and it was three days late arriving because of the repairs. It seems they rushed the fixes to keep from losing a contract.
-- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.
At your age, you gotta touch everything you can sneak up on...
Denny
Now that was funny!
Roy
It doesn't but who said that the pressure was equal? The key word here Budd is PRESSURE, something that WILL NOT happen in an open system.
If you say so, I wasn't there. As for being interconnected, I bet that there is a valve between the sides and that it was closed.
Like I said before, due to a pressure build up, something that does not happen in the modern open at rest hydraulic clutch of the OP's vehicle.
Not really, I just brought out the point that the pipe bender and hydraulic clutch are two very different systems, something that you refuse to realise.
Negligence is all that is needed to get people injured or killed and that oily mess was also really nothing more than negligence when you think about it.
LOL, I never claimed to be an expert in all hydraulic systems or all malfunctions with them but I do understand this type of system. As for me starting anything, not at all. You are simply wrong here and I am not the only one saying it and I am not bashing you for it, those days are done. While you may have significant experience in closed hydraulic systems, this is not a closed system at rest and many of the symptoms that you have experienced with them simply do not apply here. The address supplied by Marsh Monster
Now you are just being silly. We are talking about a modern light truck, not a relic, heavy truck, or a damn fork lift and if you think that all four of these things use exactly the same hydraulic systems.... As for forklift systems being technically automotive systems, that is simply ridicules so that didn't answer the question at all and BTW, I asked for a specific system (specific vehicle), not a general class and make it a modern system (vehicle) as we are dealing with a modern vehicle in this thread.
I can only speak for myself and sometimes when I have been stuck in slow moving traffic for a while and then it opens up, I sometimes forget that my foot is still on the clutch pedal. I usually realize it when I set the cruise.
At your age, you still get slapped if you do
-- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.
But it's not an open system.
Nope. The hydraulic pump applied pressure to the wing cylinders equally WHEN IT WAS RUNNING. The fire happened while it was being changed over to bend a different size / type of exhaust pipe.
The pump pressure line teed to each wing but the rest of the system from the tee was still filled with hydraulic oil, just the one cylinder was empty.
Btw, bleeding that system is a ten minute job . . .ten minutes of bending cycles without pipe.
Tom, why is it important to bleed the air from a braking system? If you don't know all the reasons, then you don't know hydraulic clutch systems.
And you forget the basics of hydraulic systems and that any hydraulic system can have the same troubles as any other.
Well, I'll excuse that as you didn't know the lazy character that had the job.
As do I and I've the experience of fixing those malfunctions.
Right . . . .
Unfortunately, you both are wrong is saying I'm wrong.
Sorry, but it's not an open system. Sure, there's a small relief orifice, which has been used even in the earliest designs, for fluid replacement, but it's not an open system.
Nope, not at all. It's still an automotive vehicle and has similar systems. Tell us how the brake system differs, the engine operation, the transmissions ( auto and manual) the differential, the steering ( ok, it's a modified Ackerman design to allow tighter turns).
The only difference is possibly in the fuel used (propane for some) and the hydraulics pump . .which can be found on a dump bed conversion for a pick up truck.
Now, did you know that motorcycles, scooters, why even mopeds and those darn little electric scooters are "automobiles"?
And if you don't think they don't . . . .
Uh, oh, Tom's going to blow.
Tom, before you do, it's been 30 some years since I dove under a forklift floorboard and I don't remember brand / model / serial numbers for the exact forklifts I repaired, but the big Yale rental comes to mind because I had to fix it because the rental company's mechanic couldn't.
How did I learn how to fix it? When the other forklift mechanic, on first shift, the guy with the wallpaper (diploma), couldn't get one system bled out right, he still sent the truck back out for use. When I came in a few hours later, the clutch was smoking on it from trapped air. Now how do I know it wasn't a driver riding the clutch? That year of forklift could be started in gear (1962 Yale 4000 cap) and the driver had a cast on his left foot from having a horse step on it. He would shut the engine off to change direction or use his right foot to work the clutch for inching. Now why was he working with a broken foot? You would have had to work for that employer to understand.
I just remembered how my mom taught me to avoid it . . I tuck the clutch foot back under my right leg until I see I might need it again. In traffic, I keep it on the floorboard below the pedal.
Budd
My wife still reminds me that I sometimes stomp my left foot on the floor after each shift. I don't even realize when I do it. When learning to drive, dad insisted that I stomp my clutch foot on the floor so he could hear it. By doing that he didn't have to constantly watch my feet to see if I was riding the clutch. 25 years later, I'm still stomping on the floor.
How about reading hiw message through, mentioning about having a four post lift?
Whatever works, right?
Btw, I used that stomping technique to train National Guard dump truck drivers, most of whom never drove a manual trans before signing up.
Now, as I understand it, most of the trucks are automatics . . . .
-- Budd Cochran
Can't speak of forklifts but any automotive hydraulic clutch sysyem is open to the reservoir once the clutch pedal is in the full up position. Any expansion of air or fluid will simply push the volume back into the reservoir.
This i8s bgasic high school Auto Shop I.
So what? My comments were in rebuttal to Budd's claim that trapped air would expand with heat and cause added pressure on the TO bearing (it won't) and in typical fashion you go into a diatribe on an unrelated side effect of air entrapment.
And in typical fashion you reply at length to a post where I basically agree with you.
Whatever.
Oh? If you agree with me in my disagreement with Budd why did you make this statement on 10/28 that agrees with Budd?
An improperly bled system has air in it. Air (any gas, be it air, or fluid vapor) can expand and contract due to temperature, and thus can allpy (sic) a small amount of pressure over designed pressure to the throwout bearing."
Typical flip-flop.
Do you disagree that an improprerly bled system is working improperly? Do you have proof that an improperly bled system cannot apply more pressure to a (in this case) static TO bearing?
Do you know EVERY possible situation, problem, result, solution to a hydraulic system?
If not, maybe its time to sit back and accept that weird things do happen.
Typical whining from you. Time to shut up, like you had been for a couple of months.
Same system, John, same problems and possibilities.
That's what I'm trying to get T-bone to understand . . .there is no difference in operation or function.
-- Budd Cochran
It is NOT the same system Budd and saying that it is just makes you look foolish. If what you say is true, then the only way that you could compress a brake caliper piston back into it's bore would be to open up the brake bleeder and we both know that you do not have to do that, it may be a good idea, but not a requirement. Nobody else in the group agrees with you here on this point including Max so that alone should tell you something.
Do you have proof that it can? As you both know and are counting on, it is impossible to prove a negative but since you seem to be now making the claim that it can happen (a positive), how about backing it up.
Resorting to the law of infinite possibilities now, are we? I must say Max, you do make me laugh.
If the probability is near zero, then counting it is nothing more than ignorance and paranoia. If you follow this bullshit reasoning, how do you begin any repairs? After all, there could be millions of reasons why that trans won't shift so how would you ever start? The real answer is that you don't really buy this crap either. You will just spin to any level to not have to admit to being wrong. Like I said, you do make me laugh.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice every now and then.
Yes it is, at rest. The diagram in the link provided clearly demonstrates that it is, regardless of your beliefs.
Since I was not there and have no schematic of the plumbing of this system, there is no point arguing about it and the fact that it is a very different type of system in every way, makes what happened to it a non-issue.
LOL, complete BS.
Once again, you are incorrect. While the basics of how they work may be the same, the problems that each type can have and how they effect the system can be very different. This is basic stuff here Budd.
Really? Which modern vehicles (CARS) did you make these repairs on?
I guess that when you say both, you are really reffering to John, Marsh Monster, Max, and myself.
Even going by your wording, what exactly do you think that "relief" means. You are just contradicting yourself here.
So does the space shuttle, is it an automotive vehicle as well? Having a few similar systems does not make it the same thing.
Some still have mechanical brakes, other only brake on the drive wheels. What cars still use these systems?
Many are fully electric and have been for ever. How many production vehicles fall into this catagory?
Many of the above electrics don't have shifting transmissions so again, how many cars fall into these catagories.
Most fork lifts stear from the rear wheeles, how many cars do that?????
Really, I looked all over my conventional pick up truck and for the life of me, I can't find that damn pump. I did find one for the steering and it does't seem to have a big problem with a little air in the system.
While true here if you streach the definition, that is nt the case with a fork lift as it is not a road vehicle and is not designed to carry passengers.
I know that they don't.
Nobody is doubting your skills as a fork lift mechanic but we are not talking about fork lifts or even 30+ year old vehicles.
Since I was not there, I will not argue the point with you but what it had over 40 years ago is probably not the same thing that a modern passenger vehicle has so unless you can prove that it is, using it as an example is invalid. As for the employer, he would probably lose his business if he pulled stupid shit like that in today's world of lawsuits.
I started off with an automatic (65 Dodge Dart GT) and taught myself how to drive a standard shift (62 Falcon). My father did tell me to keep my foot on the floor under the clutch pedal when not shifting and for the most part, that is exactly what I do and anymore, I tend to shift it without the clutch at all. The problem is that it is not always practical and quite tiring to do that in the heavy traffic I would have to deal with in the GS parkway and when the traffic does finally ease up....
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