WOW! I hadda got 35 MPG !

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I see that besides being a moron, you're also an operationally illiterate, for you're putting owrds I never said in my mouth that could only be construed by someone as dumb as you. I guess that there's a reason why mechanics don't make cars...
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Excuse me Neo:
But, if he is an "operationally illiterate" as you called him, and which there is no such thing.
Please, with all due respect, look at your below captioned post and tell me this: "with all the typos" you are a functional illiterate?
Plus, I'm sure you can see Charles has more working knowledge of automotive theory and operation than most engineers, your right. Us mechanics can't make cars, we're too busy fixing the problems the engineers designed in!
Sincerely,
Refinish King
You might want to take an extra Prozac pill for a few days, Charles might make a few typos in the heat of arguing, but I think your second personality: "Neophyte The BOBBO Honker" takes you over!

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First of all, I did not put words in your mouth. I listed things you have shown thru your arguments that you know nothing about.
From what your saying, your trying to make me assume your an engineer. If you are, your one of the dumbest ones I have ever met.
As for mechanics not designing cars, that is a lie. I grew up with a father who did M.E. & E.E. work.I knew alot of the engineers that worked for him. 95% of the work they did was for GM & Chrysler. Everything from Machine tool designs, to parts Proto Types, as well as system designs.
Before my father worked at that company he was a brake systems & plaint engineer for GM. On top of that he was a Professional Mechanic, who when in to engineering. He also ran a successful SS/A drag car in the days before prostock. No fancy crews, no deep pocketed sponsors. Just him. Top 10 in his division every year he ran. Back then SS/A was a pro class.
So once again your full of shit. Mechanics do make cars. Not just the engineers, not just the people who test the systems, but some of the people on the lines. Dayton Ohio is still a GM town. I have sold a lot of parts over the years to people that work for GM (some now work for Delphi). A good number of them build race cars, as well as repair regular street vehicles.
Unlike you I understand the whole process behind a vehicle system. From concept to production. From production to assembly. From Assembly to repair.
I am far from the smartest man involved in the car game. I am far from the most skilled. I'm not even the quickest at repairs. Yet I'm light years ahead of you. Charles (I know I said I was done, blame RK he egged me on).
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Because he needed to be shown that you aren't the idiot he called you!
Refinish King

engineer.
who
some
for
regular
From
from
years
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Please Charles!
Don't stop arguing with him?
I love to see him put his foot in his mouth, in fact. I think it's his only form of nutrition, and therefore his brain lacks the calories to produce a coherent argument.
Ala Monty python!
This is a fun argument, that I haven't had to get into yet. Please, by all means. Keep kicking his unknowledgeable ass?
Refinish King
PS While you're at it, ask him the concept of how the torque converter is a viscous coupling, that evolved from a clutch type viscous coupling. he won't know whether to shit his watch, or wind his asshole?

it
up
you
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RAck and pinion was used by Bolkswagen more than 30 years ago without power assist, the concept is far from new. Roy

Look
systems
take
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Neo wrote:

Ahhh, ok Mr Rocket Scientist.....this sounds like an intelligent reason why not to put it in neutral. I mean...we all know that engines can "only" stall when the trans is in neutral, not when it's in drive.
Sheesh.
Ian
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Well, Mr. Sarcastic, I never said it can stall ONLY in N, but if it does, the wheels will not be turning the engine, creating vacuum in the intake manifold for the power brake and turning the power steering pump then.
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Neo wrote:

Oh boy, you've taken your smart pills today, haven't you? What is your point?....if the engine stalls, in either neutral, or drive, it quits. These cars don't have rear transmission pumps. So if the engine quits, you won't have power steering, but you will have power brakes for one or two applications. And this will happen whether it quits in drive or neutral! You have as much chance of the engine "quitting" while it's in drive or in neutral. In other words, putting the car in neutral while you are bombing down the road puts you in no more danger of losing your power steering or power brakes then if you were in drive. Got it? Vacuum is not created by the wheels "turning" the engine. There is more then enough vacuum created simply by the engine idling.
Very strange ideas that some of you have. They certainly have no relationship with how cars "actually" work. But that seems to be par for the course on "automotive" newsgroups. It wouldn't be so bad if the information was posed as a question, but to speak authoritatively about complete BS is beyond me.
Ian
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Personal atacks seem to be the norm in newsgroups too. You've helped me before in this forum and I had you in good consideration. Now this repeated lack of civility from you really disappoints me.

So the wheels wouldn't turn the engine in an automatic? I don't think so.

Yeah, right. The engine, that air-pump, stops pumping air...

Not when the engine is dead and not turning.
BTW, have you taken your Ritalin today?
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Sorry to tell you Neo you are wrong and Ian is right.
1. When an automatic is in drive and rolling with the engine off the engine will not turn over. It will act is if it's in neutral because with an automatic it basically is.
2. The engine creates the vacuum to power the brakes and unless the motor is running there is NO vacuum.
Brian
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You know how an automatic works don't you? The Torque Converter is the only thing that provides a direct linkage to the engine and the tranny. The flywheel is attached to one half of the TCC and the tranny is attached to the other part. A torque converter is a type of fluid coupling, which allows the engine to spin somewhat independently of the transmission. Even though the turbine changes the direction of the fluid and flings it out the back, the fluid still ends up moving in the direction that the turbine is spinning because the turbine is spinning faster in one direction than the fluid is being pumped in the other direction. If you were standing in the back of a pickup moving at 60 mph, and you threw a ball out the back of that pickup at 40 mph, the ball would still be going forward at 20 mph. This is similar to what happens in the turbine: The fluid is being flung out the back in one direction, but not as fast as it was going to start with in the other direction.
At these speeds, the fluid actually strikes the back sides of the stator blades, causing the stator to freewheel on its one-way clutch so it doesn't hinder the fluid moving through it.
And only cars that have a lock-up clutch in their TC do the 2 halves go the same speed acting as a clutch would in a manual tranny.
So..let's see..if there's no direct linkage from the tranny to the engine then I suppose that the engine wouldn't have to keep going if the car is coasting if it died. The parts of the tranny would keep going though. I'd like to see you push start an automatic since that is basically what you are saying can be done.

Last time I checked vacuum was created by differences in air pressure. A vacuum exists in an area where the pressure is lower than the atmosphere outside of it. Reducing the pressure inside of something causes suction. When you drink soda through a straw, the atmospheric pressure in the air pushes down on your soda and pushes it up into your mouth. The same principal applies to your engine. When the piston travels down in the cylinder it lowers the atmospheric pressure in the cylinder and forms a vacuum. This vacuum is used to draw in the air and fuel mixture for combustion. The vacuum created in your engine not only pulls the fuel into the combustion chamber, it also serves many other functions.
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From what you're saying, one would conclude that automatics don't provide any engine braking, which is false. If you want to try, just slam 1st gear coming to a light and hold fast to the wheel.
Try doing that in N...
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I never said anything about engine braking, all I said was that the wheels wouldn't turn the engine. And yeah, no shit, if you go from 30 MPH down to first you're going to experience slowdown. I wouldn't really call that engine braking either. Basically, if it can't be push started it doesn't provide any noticeable amount of engine braking. Both work off of the pressure of the engine. Push starting it is overcoming the inertia of the engine by pushing it..thus starting it. Engine braking uses that pressure to slow down the wheels. If only you could take your car out, get it up to 30 mph and put it in neutral, turn it off, then put it in 1st. You'd still slow down, but not by the engine pressure but by the gearing. I'm sure you've been on here when people have said that their cars die when it warms up unless they give it gas. And I'm sure that you've heard the response about the TCC solenoid being bad. It locks the TCC up. Since a locked-up TCC is like a clutch in a manual you could do all the stuff you'd be able to do with a manual. The reason those cars kept dying is because the TCC wouldn't unlock so the car was always in gear. Now if you've driven a manual anything you know that putting a car into gear without giving it enough gas will make it die. Since it doesn't happen to cars that don't have the TCC locked-up what does that say? That there isn't enough of a load on the engine to kill it. Which would imply what? That the tranny isn't hooked up to the engine.
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Here's where you show you haven't really tried it. Well, teaching my daughter about how to use the gears to slow down in case of brake failure, I did: coming at 40MPH, I slammed 1st gear and as soon as the speed came down and the ECU realized that 1st gear wouldn't over-rev the engine, when it was engaged there was as much engine braking as used the brakes. Try it, it won't hurt... much.

You said it: "there isn't enough of a load on the engine". You're nothing but confirming my answer.
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wheels
to
Good for you, go out there and you kill your tranny sooner, it'll get another idiot off the road, now we see why you had to change the tranny fluid in your Bonne at 30k miles. And just so you know, I've been riding motorcycles for quite awhile now so I do know what it feels like. BTW...most 4T60/Es (all but one) and all 4T65Es can go 40 mph in first so I fail to see how much you could have slowed down.

kill
engine.
And that supports your answer how?
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I guess not, as it was done only once.

Your bikes had automatic transmissions?

If you fail to see it, it's your problem.

Go back to middle school and try harder to learn those English classes you've probably cut.
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They're out there. http://www.ridleymotorcycle.com/Dynamic/models-04auto-glide740.htm
That and I know what downshifting on a manual feels like.

see
You know, GM trannys'll downshift and the engines'll get more gas to stay at a certain speed. The engine would have sped up to keep with the gear change, or it may have dropped down to possibly 37 MPH. I present facts, you display amentia.

Oh damn, my secret has been found out. Come on, if you're going to insult me try harder. That attempt was just puerile.
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Non-sequitur.
Oh, will it? Right...

Facts or unfounded opinions? We live in an age in which people arrogantly display their ignorance. You're a man of our age.
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stay at

change,
Yes it will, go up a hill with cruise control on and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

No, that man happens to be you.
"So the wheels wouldn't turn the engine in an automatic? I don't think so." "Yeah, right. The engine, that air-pump, stops pumping air..." "I never said it can stall ONLY in N, but if it does, the wheels will not be turning the engine, creating vacuum in the intake manifold for the power brake and turning the power steering pump then."
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