V10 poor towing performance

Help! Just added a 23' fifth wheel camper, pulling it with a 1999 2500 V10. The trailer is only about 6500 pounds, so I thought the V10 would have no problem towing it. The rig tows great on flat highway or small hills, but on bigger hills it slows down to about 50 and just wont go faster. It's an automatic, and I've tried with the OD off and on. Gas mileage is about 11 highway unloaded, 6 with the trailer. The truck runs great, and unloaded it's a rocket. 65000 miles, been well maintained and other than the poor towing performance it's a great truck. New MOPAR factory rebuilt trans at 50k, It seems ok and has a nice firm shift. Trans fluid is nice and clean.

Any ideas ? Plugged CAT ? I really want to keep this truck, but can't do 2000 mile trips with this really crappy towing performance.

Thanks

Reply to
rollink
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Your best bet is to take the truck to the local Dodge Dealer after you pull out all your personal stuff, and ask him to replace it with anything '03 and newer with a Cummins (305HP or better). I just got back from a camping trip (to Hat Creek, Mac) and got 20 unloaded and 12 pulling an Artic Fox 24-5N

5th.

Second best, and way far away from the Best Best, is check to see if you have the right rear end for towing. Milage will suffer but you may be able to pull the hills.

FMB

Reply to
FMB

Stupid Idea. Very Stupid and expensive too and it will NEVER EVER pay for itself no matter how long you keep it. A well tuned and feed Dodge V10 with proper gears will tow anything a stock cummins will. Back in

03 in Colorado I ran accross this Dodge truck pulling this big 5th wheel through the rockies and he was making the bacon and passing everything even on grades. I caught up to him and passed him at a little over 80 in my burb (I has not towing) and it was a V10 not a CTD. It was impressive.

A few things here, what tires size do you have and what axle ratio? Also that engine is octane hungry and will run a lot better on 89 octane or better. Trying to feed that thing 87 octane towing especailly on a warm day is just about a crime.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

Hey man, don't tow in overdrive, at least double check the owner's manual ... I know mine says to explicitly not use overdrive for towing. I don't want to see you burn out your tranny ...

later,peace

-Derek

Reply to
night_caper

i disagree as i got rid of my v10 because of fuel milage and cost. 11 mpg city? he must have a lighter foot than i do. mine was 10 best. 5 to 6 towing sounds about right. i would suspect a air flow problem possibly, have it checked by someone who knows what they are looking at. or take the advice of FMB i would. i traded a 99 v10 for an 05 Cummins powered ram, and there is no comparison, absolutively NONE!! 19 city and 21 highway is far better than

10 and 13 unloaded oh not to mention the 16 towing. yup thats right a full 10 miles to the gallon more towing is what im seeing out of Cummins over my old v10. so yup it will pay for its self faster than you would think. especially with fuel at or over $3 a gal.

the fuel bill on a v10 is a crime!!!! who can afford 10 mpg or less towing or not??? give me diesel any day.

but I get it. you don't like diesel and that's your prerogative.

Reply to
Chris Thompson

Very Stupid and expensive too and it will NEVER EVER pay

Have YOU ever owned either configuration??? Or are you just....................

Reply to
Roy

The way I read FMB's advice, he means that the whole truck should be replaced, not doing a V10 to diesel conversion on the OP's truck. Is that the way you're reading it?

Ken

Reply to
NapalmHeart

Actually I have thought about buying a wrecked low mileage CTD truck and doing the swap, I have the tools and ability to do it, and I REALLY like the truck other than the towing performance. I've been told the V10 trans will mate to the CTD, does anyone know for sure about wiring harness, fuel tank and other possible problems. If I did this I would buy a wrecked doner truck to make life much easier.

Also, any advise on what are the better or worse years for the CTD ? If I sell this for the Cummins, I don't want to make another mistake.

Thanks Rollin

Reply to
rollink

Probably not... Sno thinks all diesels are junk, and the same amount of work can be done just as well with a gasoline engine, geared like a winch.

We're fairly certain a diesel touched him inappropriately as a child, and he's harboring repressed feelings of resentment and hatred. :^)

Reply to
Tom Lawrence

If you get the same year truck (or at least in the same 'body generation' - ie. '94-'97, or '98-'02), and you get the complete engine electrical harness (including the PCM - the computer that bolts to the pasenger firewall, which is separate from the ECM, which is the computer bolted to the driver's side of the diesel engine. The ECM runs the engine [on those that have it - see below], the PCM handles the transmission, instrument panel, pretty much everything BUT the engine operation), everything should pretty much plug together at the firewall. The fuel tank will be fine, but you'll either have to replace the fuel pump module with an empty module designed for a diesel (which is just a pickup tube and a return line), or make one yourself (simple enough to do - couple of bulkhead fittings, and just cap off the ports on the old module - it'll do a good job of sealing up the big hole it would otherwise leave in the tank if you removed it).

Well, it would be easiest to work with a '94 to early '98 donor truck, which came with the 12V (12 valve) diesel engine. The engine is strictly mechanical (give it +12V to the fuel shutoff solenoid, crank it over, and it'll run), meaning less wiring problems to deal with. No ECM to deal with, and minimal wiring (the fuel shutoff solenoid, a tach wire somewhere, and oil pressure and water temp sensors - that's about it). If you go this route, research the "killer dowel pin" problem, and make sure the engine you get either has this fix, or fix it before putting it in the truck (real simple to do when the engine's on a stand). If you go with a late '98 to '02 donor truck, you'll have the 24V (24 valve) semi-electronic engine. This engine has a little more electronics going on (for example, it has an ECM), as the fuel injection is partially electronic (but partially mechanical, as well). It also has an electric lift pump (the pump that pulls fuel from the tank and feeds it to the injection pump) as opposed to the earlier mechanical pump (cam-driven from the engine).

Given the two, the 12V is a little more reliable, and a little better on fuel economy. The 24V has the potential for more power, because of the better-flowing head - though I get the sense you're not looking to build a competition sled-puller here.

Reply to
Tom Lawrence

I will bet that you fueled you V10 with 87 octane too. Contray to popular belief it is not the best choice but many that do not understand octane and engine true requirement hang on to 87 for dear life and then complain about power power and MPG. Sure it may never get great MPG but 89 octane is 30 cents cheaper than diesel here and diesel averaged abut 75 cents more a gallon last winter here and I expect the same this winter or higher still. So what are we saving here when you factor in truck option price too????? The V10 is likely one of the finest gas tow motors ever built (when feed properly) second only to a 8.1 maybe and WAY ahead of a higher HP rated Hemi in towing power. I nearly bought a Dodge 03 ext cab with a V10 and a 5 speed a few years ago. It was a very impressive truck power wise and would pull strongly from about 1000 RPM to past 4000 and never miss a beat.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

I have driven both many times and I can do math can you???

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

Se people like you are on some kind of trip that the get a fix by putting people down. I have been around diesels in farm machinery and construction equipment for about 40 years now have you??? I know deisel ins and outs and I have had several of them as loaners for several weeks at a time and have friend with them too. See what irks you guys is that you just cannot stand it when someone does not blindly follow the diesel fumes. I was pulling some wicked loads with gas trucks long before there was a oil burner in a pickup. While going to college in 70's I drove a c70 triaxle during summer months and breaks and it "tiny" 427 with a 20 speed had no trouble moving its 60K GVW around. THe ONLY thing that holds back some gas tow vehicle is axle ratios and nothing more. Gear a gas motor properly for its power curve and load and it will pull anything you ask it too. Sure it may use more gas but fuel costs less, truck is about 6 k cheaper, it weigh

400 to 600lbs less so it can carry more payload, cheaper to maintain and insure and the list goes on. But see some of you diesel guys are just on hormones and not open to logic at all nor true cost involved too. I can co out to my gas burner when it is 20 below or colder and it WILL start instanly and smoothly and be able to drive off and heat up quickly until a oil burner and no stinky fumes, hands from fuel and I can even not have to yell in a drive thru to be heard too. If you like them fine but not in my driveway, only in the fields and such.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

With the lower compression of the V10, 87 octane is not a problem. I ran (heck, still do) 87 in my V10 in all but the hot summer months, where I would notice a slight ping on WOT acceleration, with a Mopar PCM (which advances the timing). When I switched back to the stock PCM, I couldn't get it to ping.

So, contrary to YOUR belief (and it's just that - a belief, as - with many other things - you have no first-hand experience to offer... just a bunch of pontifications, half-truths, and down-right rediculous claims), 87 octane is not a problem in this engine.

Well, there's your problem - you're in the wrong part of the country. Prices recently dropped here (yeah... go figure that one), but I just filled up with diesel for $2.899 the other day... 89 was $3.099 at the same place.

Maybe so - but the engine averages twice the fuel economy, so unless diesel hits about $5.85 a gallon, it will ALWAYS be cheaper to operate a diesel than a V10.

Bummer, huh?

Reply to
Tom Lawrence

That's not what he asked...

Reply to
Tom Lawrence

We know... we know.... uphill, both ways, 6 feet of snow.... in July... no shoes...

And stop at every gas station along the way, too...

Yeah, I'd say twice as much meets the definition of 'more'

Not around here....

By the time you fork over $12K in fuel (24,000 miles at 3 bucks a gallon, getting 6MPG), you'd have paid for that extra $6K

Negligible when talking about a 1-ton truck... and we're talking about towing, not hauling.

Nope - as has been shown here time and time again. The cost is the same or slightly less.

your insurance asks what kind of engine you have? Funny.... I paid about the same per year on my '99 V10 when it was new as I did for my '03 Cummins when it was new. They never asked about engine... body type, number of doors, yeah - engine? nope. Misrepresentation # 3,194 by you, if my count is correct.

As soon as you present some logic, we'll listen.

you mean like I did with my diesel two winters ago? Okay - granted, I had to wait about 6 seconds for the grid heaters to warm up. Wow... ya got me there. 6 whole seconds. That's worth an extra $50K in extra fuel costs (assuming the gas engine makes it to 200,000 miles - we know the diesel will)

the only time I've smelled any 'stinky fumes' from my truck is when I walk behind it when it's idling. If you spend all day with your nose up your truck's tailpipe, well....

Don't make a mess, and your hands won't stink. Use the full service island if you're worried about mussing your manicure.

I hit the drive-thru about once a week (yeah, I know...), and they never have any trouble hearing me. 'course, when that one SOB in his BMW cut me off so he could get in line first, he had a BIT of trouble being heard.... probably something to do with my engine taching up to about 2,700RPM.... gotta get that problem looked at.

I do - as do a number of others. You don't, that's well established. But please, stop with all the errant 'facts' of yours. As several people have told you - a lot has changed with light-truck diesels in the past 10 years.

Reply to
Tom Lawrence

The math doesn't always add up.

If he took his truck down to the Dodge dealer and traded it for the exact same truck, except with a Cummins, it would cost him about $9,000. Check the numbers on KBB.com.

According to the numbers quoted here, the diesel gets 16mpg towing, and the V-10 gets

  1. That's a big difference. And straight highway driving the diesel gets 21 and the gas 11mpg. Again, big difference; but I suspect that's worse case for the gas and best case for the diesel. But how many gallons of fuel, and how many miles do you have to travel to make up that K?

In towing miles, it's only about 30,000 miles or so to break even. In straight highway driving, it's closer to 60K miles. And that's best case scenario on today's fuel prices.

Now you've got a truck that has 100-120K+ miles on it, just to break even. The Cummins will easily last twice that. But will the trans? Ball joints? Shocks? Brakes? Batteries (there are 2)? I don't think so. Heck, the original trans only lasted 50K, and the current one is now 30% into it's service life. Now the break even point just gets further away. For some people, that just doesn't make sense.

RollinK, You take 2,000 mile trips with your truck and trailer. How often? 5 times a year? Ten? Once? Only plan to do it once, and then never again?

I do a fair amount of towing with my small Dakota. 5-6K#, once or twice a month,

200-400 miles at a time. Gets terrible gas mileage while towing, like 8. Doesn't get much better when not towing. I've done the math, and it certainly doesn't make sense for me to trade. OTOH, if I was towing a lot more weight, or a lot more miles, it might.

You can't make a blanket statement that all truck owners are better off with a big honkin diesel. That just proves you haven't done your homework.

Reply to
.boB

That wasn't the question. So you have no real long term experience with one?

Reply to
Roy

If your logic is correct why aren't gas engines used in otr rigs? Or donkey engines? Hell, locomotives?

Reply to
Roy

generation' -

A lot depends on the state he lives in and their emissions control laws. In many states you have to have your vehicles smog checked. If so, you can't easily swap engines.

Al

Reply to
Big Al

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