Re: GM's Dick Wagonwheel dont wanna rub butts in bed with french

I don't know. But all the indications I get are that the Toyota Sienna has

85% domestic content. Except for what you say, I have not seen any indications that the number indicates anything other than the vehicle was made in America. I have backed my claims. How about backing yours?

Your repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.

Certainly, my sources could be wrong, for example, based on the same incorrect report. But, considering that I found several sources that show the first digit just indicating the place where a vehicle is made an no indication of percent domestic content, and that I have found several sources that indicate that the Toyota Sienna has over 84% domestic content, I would have to suggest that you're incorrect.

Back your claims if you are correct. Repeating the same crap over and over again doesn't make it smell better.

Jeff

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Reply to
Jeff
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Last year, Toyota sold approx. 2.5 million vehicles in the US. Toyota also made about 1.55 million vehicles North America, including three plants in Canada. That means about 50% of the vehicles sold in the US in were made in the US.

Actually, about 2/3 of the parts that go into Toyotas are from US or Canadian parts.

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(The 80% figure for GM is US/Canada, not just US.)

And the proportion of parts made in the US/Canada is going up, not down as it is at GM.

The ads don't matter. THe domestic content does, and it is 68.9%, about 11% less than GM.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

So why did you make the claim about gas mileage? Also are you counting cars that are nearly identical as different models or as a single model. For example, the Toyota Echo and Scion Xa are nearly identical.

Reply to
larry moe 'n curly

Perhaps you missed the part that asked, 'Why do you think the US has THREE different digits to designate made in the US and not one like the '2' that indicates Canada or the '3' that indexes Mexico?' Your repeating the same thing doesn't make what you believe to be true, actually true, now does it? North American parts labeling is far differ than the FTC regulation of American content other than the source of parts. Use some logic here. Why in the world would a Camry, made entirely in Japan which has a 'J' as the first digit, display a parts label that indicates it has ANY percentage of north American parts, when it obviously does not?

mike hunt

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Reply to
Mike Hunter

You are free to continue to believe whatever you wish. The fact remains, except for the Toyotas made in the GM/Toyota California plant that display a '1' the Toyotas with a '4' and a '5' are only assembled in the US of mostly imported parts, just as Toyotas says in the advertisements. ;)

mike hunt

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Reply to
Mike Hunter

What I said was both GM and Ford offer more different vehicles that get 30 or more MPG than does ANY import.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

No, it doesn't. However, my research that does not show any evidence that the first digit has anything to do with North American content (other than assembled in America), as well as the fact that the first digit does not correlate with what you say about North American content (like the percentage you quote for the Toyota Sienna, between 40 and 70%), when, in fact, the Toyota Sienna is about 85% North American content makes me think that your information is incorrect.

What I found is that originally, only the '1' digit was assigned to the US, and later '4' and '5' were assigned to the US. These were assigned by the International Standards Organization, an organization which would not care about US content. So I don't see any reason to believe what you say.

Now, consider this: I have been able to back my claim with different web sites for both the VIN information and the North American content of the Toyota Sienna (about 85%). What is published by authorative sources disagrees with your claims.

Perhaps, if you want us to believe your claims, you could back them up. How about showing us how Toyota has VINs beginning with '1' and '4' and '5'? What do you do when something has 69% US content when it has an automatic transmission, but 71% US content when the tranmission is a standard (assuming that the transmission is made in different countries depending on the type)? I would expect to see different first numbers if your claims are correct.

Note: The VIN for the Ford Escape begins 1FM, but for the Mazda Tribute, it begins 4F2. Same vehicle, same source for the parts, different first letter of the VINs. What does that tell you? Could it be that the VIN, which is specified by an International group (ISO), has nothing to do with content, but just the country of manufacture? Please explain how this does not fly in the face of what you say.

The reason why there are so many different first numbers for the the VINs in the US is that so many different vehicle makers are in the US. These include buses, trucks, recreation vehicles, motor cycles, cars, 4 wheelers and trailers. The reason why there are 3 first digits for the US is that there are so many different vehicles requiring VINs made in the US.

If you want to back your claim, you have to use real data.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Comparison: All three comparisons were made with the Comparison tool on the Ford site. So these are the vehicles that Ford thought were more comparable. You can draw your own conclusions.

Ford Focus: 27 City/37 Highway Toyota Corrola: 32/41 Honda Civic: 30/38

Ford Fusion: 23/31 Chevy Malibu: 22/32 Toyota Camry: 24/33

Ford 500: 21/29 Chrysler 300: 19/27 Chevy Impala: 21/31 Toyota Avalon: 22/31

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

No so. The reason the reason the Tribe has a '4' is the same reason the Lincoln LT has a '4' rather than the '1' that is assigned to the F150 on which it is based. Although made on the same assembly line as the F150, more of the parts like the interior an some of the other parts, are designed and built in Canada and thus the US content drops to below 70% but not below

40%. By the way the F2 on the Mazda truck indicates assembled in a Ford plant, not a Mazda plant, which would make it a 'Z' designation Much like the 1ZVF designation for the Mustang, which is now made in the Mazda/Ford assembly plant in Flat Rock Michigan rather than the Ford Rouge plant.

mike hunt

Note: The VIN for the Ford Escape begins 1FM, but for the Mazda Tribute, it

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Please back your claims with real data. The Mazda Tribute and Ford Escape which are nearly identical vehicles made in the same plant have different first digits.

You have repeated this bullshit about VINs, yet been unable to provide one shread of evidence to back it up.

Toyota claims about 2/3 of the content of its vehicles comes from the US/Canada ( you can see this on their website). About 85% of the Toyota Seinna comes from US/Canada content.

What you say about the VINs is total bullshit. If I am wrong, please back your claims.

Jeff

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Reply to
Jeff

Wrong again. The Mazda Tribute and Ford Escape (and Ford Ranger and Mazda B-series) both are 90% US/Canada components:

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Your idea that the first number of the VIN has to do with content has come up empty, again.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Toyota has nine differnt vehicles that get 30 MPG or more, GM has thirteen an Ford has fifteen. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I do not do home work for my own grand children, what make you believe I would do yours? ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

You forgot to say, in my opinion. What manufacture has the largest number recalls so far this model year, including several hundred thousands worldwide for defective engines? Hint; The company name begins with a 'T' ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I'm sorry. I fail to see how this has anything to do with what is below.

Another reason why it is bad to toppost.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

I did my homework. I found no evidence at all that the first digit of the VIN has anything to do with domestic content and plenty of evidence that it doesn't (like the Mazda Tribute and Ford Escape have identical domestic content, but different first digits) that flies in the face of your contention.

So, I guess you are backing out and saying that you won't support your contention that the first digit of the VIN represents domestic content.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Thank you, Rain Man.

Reply to
MaceFace

Hmmm, then why is GM constantly at risk of failing to meet CAFE requirements while Toyota and Honda easily beat the threshold year after year. I guess that is because GM is the fuel economy leader, eh Mikey?

Also, having a large number of models is GM's problem, not it's strength. How about ONE world class minivan instead of four second rate dogs? "GM offers more models of Minivans than any other company in the world" .... but so what?

John

Reply to
John Horner

Having a lot of similar models *can* be a strength. For example, the different models can appeal to different types of people or people with different budgets.

As far as the meeting the CAFE, there are two reasons that come to my mind:

1) People don't care that much about fuel economy when gas is cheap, so they go for the bigger engine, bigger car, etc.; 2) GM doesn't do much to improve fuel economy, like make its engines more efficent. So it is both GM and its buyers.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

I have not intention of wasting more time with you. I have already explained to you why the Ford and the Mazda have a '1' and a '4' because of American total contend but you choose not to want to understand the difference. You keep referring the north American parts label. That has nothing to do with the Commerce Departments content requirements for designation the first digit of the VIN. Total American content includes ALL that goes into a vehicle, R&D, engineering, raw materials glass, steel plastics. point of assembly etc. Simply assembling parts and vehicles, with components and materials from other counties, in NA to meet that NAP requirement does not quality when it comes to the VIN, only the NAP label.

You are free to believe what you want, but if what you believe to be true were actually true, Toyota would not be advertising 'Assembled in America of world sourced parts' and their vehicles with the '4' and '5' VIN designations would have a '1' as do the Toyotas made in the GM/Toyota plant in California. The UAW contract in that plant requires all vehicle built in that pant to be at least 70% American 'content' regardless of the NAP label

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

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