New Suspension + VAT?

No, just this isn't the bit that's aimed at them, I think there was something about an extra £65 for pensioners this winter in the budgie? That would buy two pairs of insulated overalls, put those on and you'll bake ;-)

Wasn't it the case that more people die of heat in the summer than die in winter? Or was that just in France?

What helps the economy helps everyone in theory, so while I didn't spot any implication of it helping individuals (but I wasn't looking so it could have been written in 10-foot-high letters for all I know) they could paint it that way I suppose, and quite probably would!

Yeah, heating oil is what I've got, it's much more expensive than other heating methods though, I don't know how much but I've been told it's about double the price of gas. It does offer some advantages though, e.g. it makes Micro-CHD much more attractive, but not much use to those on a pension.

I was listening to some radio show podcast or other, and people were installing air-to-air heat pumps in another country, even though that country was quite cold (can't remember where), apparently they provide small amounts of heat all the time for very low costs and suck heat from the outside air even if it's cold outside, basically working like a refrigerator in reverse. I wonder if it's practical to get a load of old fridges off freecycle and DIY ;-) The best method was apparently to find an underground water source and suck the heat out of that as the water underground stays at a fairly constant temperature and you can get some really useful heat out of it. Interesting stuff, wonder if it's economic.

On or around Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:57:27 +0000, Ian Rawlings enlightened us thusly:

that's France.

I don't, to be honest, think there's much variation in terms of quid-per-therm, there's a lot of competition these days.

ground heat is a viable option for low-level warmth. I'm guessing that a conductive post driven into the ground to a depth of more than about 4ft, insulated where it's in the ground, would result in a small heat flow. Trouble is, while it's a constant temperature, more or less, not very far down, it's also not very warm. To get "warm" you have to go a lot deeper.

some kind of heat pump would work, but might not be economical.

did you see that garbage warrior film?

Why, I provided the definition I was using, you elected not to read it!

Are you sure?

If a business is spending that much on it's VAT calculations it must have some serious efficiency problems ;)

Evidence ? Come on, Any theory can be disproved by appropriate evidence. Show me any evidence that successful manufacturing companies have been set up by financial wizards or politicians.

Steve

When you aggregate the costs on everyone in the chain I wouldn't be at all surprised, especially since you may have to finance the VAT payment on overdrafts, until HMRC deign to send you your refund.

Steve

Indeed, however you claimed to disprove my statement, and put forward what you claimed to be a "thesis", a word you plainly don't know the meanin of, and then rattled on about *me* providing facts and proof to counter yours. I've yet to see any facts and proof from you so why the hell should I "counter" your "facts and proof" when they've yet to appear.

I personally can't be bothered to hunt down what I would regard as facts and proof of what I said, but unlike you I don't claim to have it, present a load of hogwash with "proof" written on it in biro then waffle on about my "thesis".

In message , Ian Rawlings writes

£60 , which is the equivalent of just over £1.00 per week

I think yo are thinking of France. 23500 additional deaths due to cold in the UK last year, forecast 25000 this Winter as it is likely to be cold. That's about 1/4 million since Labour came to power.

There was a company at Staffordshire County Show a year ago flogging these systems. Damned expensive.

I think the point was that most politicians traditionally have done at least ONE job outside politics. What we are seeing in increasing numbers are 30 somethings whose CV read school, university, politics degree, political assistant/researcher/advisor, MP.

They see being an MP as a career and hence their primary concern is keeping their noses clean within their party.

We've been through all this already.

So how will they keep their jobs if that's all they do? How many other professions have their customers vote for them every few years?

Oh, I have hit a raw nerve. The origin of "Thesis" is I think Greek and means "a proposition to be proved" - I offered some supporting observations. If you don't like it stop waffling - you've spent longer wobbling on about the provenance of my facts than you might have had finding some countervailing examples. I'd certainly like to see some, but every motor maker I could find had an engineer at the top of the board.

Engineering is a vocation (that's why it's a profession) rather than just a job, and accompanied by an attitude to work and business different from an accountant or "business graduate" - so, to me its not surprising most successful motor companies are headed by engineers, whether they still have their "hands on" the engineering involved in the job or not. Please yourself whether you accept it as an idea.

Steve

No, Thesis means you offer a statement *with* supporting proof.

Tenuous examples isn't proof, as I've tried to get across. Either of us proving our point would take us both months of research, and neither of us are prepared to do that, the difference between us is that I'm not claiming to have proof, you are.

Secondly, my statement was that you do not have proof, not that you are wrong, I think you are wrong, but I do not *know* it. I *do* know that you do not have the proof that you claim to have, and that your standards of "proof" offered are far lower than you think they are. Hence my examples of the water diviner, tarot card reader and so on.

Im pleased to report that the price dropped this morning to £235.75.

Take the p/l price of heating oil and divide it by ten to get a rough cost per kWhr. Each litre of oil will produce about 10kWhr of heat (if burnt in

1 hour). Just bought 2000l @ 36.2p/l so about 3.6p/unit. Gas I think is around 4 or 5p/unit now and hasn't fallen back like oil has.

Available here, I know of a couple of installations. Use 1 to 2kw of electric to get 4 to 6kW of heat. The draw backs are that the efficiency takes a nose dive with air temps below about 5C (the collector ices up and needs heat to defrost it) and the heat is "low grade" ie output flow temps of 40 to 50C, suitable for UFH but nor really hot enough for DHW or conventional radiator.

Yep or a river, ground source will work as well if you have the space, the collector is a several hundred metres of pipe in a coil about 1m in diameter buried about 1m below the surface. Thats quite a large hole... I have heard of bore hole systems but nor quite sure how they work. I don't think it's just pump fluid down and let it rise back up, I think they are two hole pump down one extract from the other, this involves shattering the rock between the holes with explosives so you probably need suitable a rock. Still "low grade" heat though, with a new build or digging out/replacing a floor slab for some reason I'd look hard at putting in UFH and a ground source heat pump but replacing the floor slab just for UFH doesn't make economic sense.

Boo hoo, I filled my tank just before the prices fell, cost me about

50p/litre!

Did you really mean the pipe is 1m in diameter? That is a big hole! I know of systems that have a zig-zag of narrow hosepipe buried under the garden collecting daytime heat, didn't know of 1 metre diameter pipes!

I know someone in Wales who's installing a heat pump, ground sourced, and as you say it needs to be underfloor as it provides a little bit of heat all the time, he's yet to finish the install (part of a total house renovation) but I'll be prodding him for his views on it once it's been going for a while during cold weather.

On or around Tue, 2 Dec 2008 17:24:25 +0000, Ian Rawlings enlightened us thusly:

well I read it that it was a coil of pipe, 1m in dia. The pipe diameter being unspecified. I'd be inclined to 8mm micorbore or similar, meself. Trouble is, it'd need to be copper so that heat gets into it, and that'd coast an arm and a leg.

Didn't say that was *all* they do, but to be re-elected they first of all have to avoid being de-selected.

Could you see another Derek Skinner or Eric Heffer being put up as a candidate these days, for example.

Err, yes, that does make more sense doesn't it! Didn't think of that.

The stuff I saw on some website somewhere was black plastic stuff of some kind, not copper, I suppose as long as it's not a good insulator it should be OK, copper would be very expensive.

Certainly the high street stores seem to be dropping their prices. I was in B&Q on Sunday and they were planning to discount at the till until they'd had time to do their tickets.

However I was looking on the Internet for something on Sunday and the cheapest supplier was still at 17.5% - their postage and packing was a lot less.