in article snipped-for-privacy@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at snipped-for-privacy@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51:
Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck.
On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested.
Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion.
Oh, you mean "if" there was ...
In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice?
Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point?
... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed?
The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats, who use Pirellis :)
If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point.
Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so why let a set of rubber spoil that?
in article 3f5a746d$0$97237$ snipped-for-privacy@dread12.news.tele.dk, Henrik B. at saab@tdcadsl_nospam_.dk wrote on 07/09/2003 00:57:
Safety? He he :)
According to
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both the Toyota Corolla and the HondaCivic did very well actually. Both got 4 stars. Other Honda and Toyotamodels also got 4 stars. ... Oh, the both the Saab 9-3 and the 9-5 got 5 stars.
You added the off-topic groups alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota back again. You must be a troll.
In the US market Saab sold 17% more cars in the first eight months of
2003 than the same months in 2002. The year 2003 has been the best in the 47 years Saab has been in the US.
J.D. Powers CSI ranking ranked Saab first among the European automakers, ahead of BMW (10th place), Mercedes-Benz (11th place), Volvo (11th place), Jaguar (11th place) and Audi (20th place).
I agree that Saab has "ways to go" to equal a Honda or Toyota in the most-boring-car competition.
YOu're right, you should not have had blowouts. You were due some decent customer service. The tires I have at Wal-Mart have 80K warrantees with maintenance...if I ran over a nail (which I did) they replace it without telling me it was my fault. You'd figure a high priced outfit like Saab would do the same.
I always liked Saabs, never having driven one, but having seen them on the road in my native NE all the time. But I realize they are quirky, expensive cars.
I can't understand all the hostility and snippiness here. Maybe they are defensive b/c they realize they paid 2x the price for something that is less reliable than a Toyota Camry?
Keep bitching to you Saab place. There must be something wrong with the alignment.
$245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site, but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know.
In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said it.
I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me, because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get a less harsh ride.
The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long.
Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it. Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter.
Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's pardon.
That's another problem with esoteric cars. The dealer density is low, so another Saab dealer is 100 miles away or so.
$275 for a tire is robbery so is the oil change. How many quarts does it take? 20? I change my own oil for $10. It makes me feel good, as it's one of the only car type things I can do.
My toyota has 135K miles on it, 8 years old, and HAS NEVER HAD A MAJOR PROBLEM. It gets 35mpg around town, still. There are other Toyotas with the same story. No transmission problems, no engine problems, no defects, recalls, nothing. No engine fires (Ford) or transmissions wearing out after 65K (Ford again).
I agree, you should sell your Saab. The maintenance and replacement parts are probably lower on a standard honda or toyota so I'd go for one of those. There are more dealers per area so you will have a choice. The parts are cheaper as they come from Japan and not high cost Sweden.
Utter nonsense. If you look back through the archive, you will see that some of the most harsh criticism comes from the group's regulars. Read about what many of us think of the NG900, the V6, the quality of Saab customer service, and several other things.
But any criticism has to have a sound basis, otherwise it's just some idiot ranting.
That's misleading though. Due to Toyota and Honda high reliability you are less likely to lose control of your car (due to blowouts and such) as you are (see OP's blowouts) in a SAAB. I'd rather drive a car with 4 stars that never gets in accidents than a 5 star safety car that has tire blowouts and probably engine failures and god knows what else.
Those 5 starts won't due you much good when the transmission seizes on you and launches you headlong into a semi.
Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough, the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.
Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does not a statistical trend make?
Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout would be.
Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.
See, now, here is where you're crossing the line. You mentioned the word "criminal" previously; have you tried calling the police to see if they agree with your accusation?
Oh, now it's rims too, not just Michelin tires? You really should figure out what your point is before you try to go with it. I can't recall any other posts about Michelin blowouts, and that's over many years here. Maybe google would tell the whole story, but I'm not going to do your homework for you.
Yes,
No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that checked?
Boolean logic being what it is, you have only satisfied one of the two conditions in the "and", therefore your "then" never comes in to play.
You've never studied logic, *or* statistics then, it would seem.
None? Zero? Tell you what - go do your research on that, and _if_ you fiind that to be true, _then_ come back to us with some stats, _else_ go away and stay somewhere near there.
Yes, and you're the only one whining about criminal, catastrophic Michelin tires. Wonder why that is.
You'll need a better cite than that if you want to get anywhere; not even a small-claims judge would buy something that weak. Anyone can claim anything they want; a usenet poster, a guy at a tire store, or some guy in the bar. Unless there's actually evidence to show that it's true, it's just some tire guy's opinion - and if he sells not-Michelin tires, his motivations might not be the same as you would think.
No, it means you are a statistical outlier. (google that before you get pissed off that I called you an "outlier" would ya? Thanks.)
So, now you're telling us (finally) that it's one front and one back, maybe? Are they both on the same side of the car?
20-questions time here. If you want helpful suggestions, don't expect us to draw these things out one post at a time. If you just want to complain, well, that's your choice.
OK, everyone, listen up. Some guy in Califorina had two blowouts of Michelin tires on his Saab.
There. Two data points for michelin tire failures. We're up to, er, let's see, two.
To you, it's very serious. To the population of Saab drivers, it seems not to be, since nobody else has reported same here. You could check The Saab Network, I suppose. In fact, that would be a good next place for you to do some homework. Maybe someone else there has seen this.
You are accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior, without having any basis for such a claim. What were you expecting, a group-hug?
What kind of tire did you buy?
Exactly. So how do you justify the accusation of "criminal" behavior?
So take your tires, and your homework, to small claims court & let a judge decide.
Sounds like you have a lot of homework to do then, doesn't it. (all of which you should be doing first, before throwing your accusations around, by the way).
So get going on your homework. Should keep you busy (and quiet)...so it's a win all around then, isn't it.
See above comment regarding how useful that information may be (not much).
Now you're inventing a 1% failure rate? You really, really need to do some homework; you're building this whole thing on a foundation of sand.
(snip of a whole bunch of further wild speculation based on nothing)
This just in: Saab and Michelin are responsible for a 17,452% chance that the world will end today.
That's hardly a "whole new light".
Oh good, we agree on something.
Sometimes you just have to realise that "Shit Happens". If you're an anomaly in tire longevity, you're just the lucky (and loud) one who gets to be that blip on the end of the bell curve. Doesn't mean the bell curve is centered around you, which seems to be what your point is.
I've got news for you, Chrysler isn't much better in 2001, although the dealer did me good. Different story, though. Maybe it's about how one approaches the dealer.
Give me a break, Kenneth. He's acusing Saab of criminal behavior because he had two blowouts, and some tire guy told him that he replaces some percentage of them. That's his whole basis for this whole thing. And, even you would have to admit that if he went to the dealer with the same tone he took here with his original post, they would hardly be motivated to be nice to him and give him *any* slack at all.
I ran my first Saab for 16 years and over 200K miles without any problems. I sold it and a teenager killed it in an accident. My Toyota died after 3 years and 37K miles.
The current Saabs contain many GM parts - so the some of the parts should be cheaper than Toyota parts.
Those "bad" tires you are talking about were made by a Japanese company, Bridgestone [owns Firestone].
Michelin and Toyo are generally regarded as the highest *quality* tire manufacturers. If you abandon Michelin, you'll likely be taking a step down in quality.
Also, I hope that you have learned that you should never buy tires at a dealer repair shop. If they weren't going to do it under warranty, then take it somewhere else. Always get a price quote from the dealer before they do anything, and don't be afraid to say "Don't do the work, I'll take it somewhere else".
Those "bad" tires you are talking about were made by a Japanese company, Bridgestone [owns Firestone].
Michelin and Toyo are generally regarded as the highest *quality* tire manufacturers. If you abandon Michelin, you'll likely be taking a step down in quality.
Also, I hope that you have learned that you should never buy tires at a dealer repair shop. If they weren't going to do it under warranty, then take it somewhere else. Always get a price quote from the dealer before they do anything, and don't be afraid to say "Don't do the work, I'll take it somewhere else".
Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car, please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car.
You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had. The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin) for the 9.3 and the 9.5.
Again, which tires did you have?
Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest of your tires would be identical.
If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number and other data might be useful in trying to determine that.
My point was that Milt was sharply criticized -- and personally attacked -- for saying that Saab, as a manufacturer, had a responsibility for the tires that were fitted as original equipment on its cars. However, despite the name-calling, that is a perfectly valid point. It also is perfectly valid to say that lack of attention to this factor may be a symptom of lack of attention to other factors.
You, Dave, similarly attacked me for complaining that the driver's side mirror on my 1996 900SE had not enough outward adjustment in it. That can be fixed, I was told by the dealer, by the addition of some washers
-- total cost to me, $140. Someone else said that there had been a technical service memo on this subject, and in the early days dealers would fix it for nothing.
There's a wider point here. What does it say about a manufacturer's attention to detail that the mirror on U.S. models has not been adapted to U.S. vehicle standards, which require flat glass on the driver's side mirror, instead of the convex glass that is used on European cars?
My car is a 1996. Maybe the problems I've had reflect the difficulties and lack of resources available to a small independent manufacturer. Maybe the infusion of GM capital has now eradicated the problems, and Saabs now ARE getting much higher ratings in consumer surveys. But my experience has soured me on the make, and they've eliminated one of the attractions for me of the brand by discontinuing hatchback models.
in article snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, brianb at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55:
EuroNCAP ... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota
( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)
A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the detail behind the summary tables.
Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.
This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.
If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do not fair as well as the current Saab range.
in article snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, brianb at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55:
EuroNCAP ... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota
( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)
A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the detail behind the summary tables.
Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.
This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.
If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do not fair as well as the current Saab range.
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