In article , snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...
Brian Mate. Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating tyres.
Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.
When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).
When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's. Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.
Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.
Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike, or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in different countries works.
In article , snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...
Brian Mate. Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating tyres.
Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.
When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).
When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's. Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.
Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.
Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike, or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in different countries works.
No, he is being sharply criticized for saying that it is a criminal action on Saab's part that causes his bad luck.
I said maybe your head is in a position that they don't expect it to be in, and you chose to take that as a personal "attack". That's fine by me, even though that hadn't been the original intent.
The guy got two blowouts. He's trying to turn it into some sort of conspiracy, when it's just plain unusally bad luck.
tires, brakes, headlight bulbs, interior parts, alternator etc. are all things that i replaced on my saab and i know for sure that they didnt cost the double what they would have been for a toyauto.
look. if there were so many blowouts on saabs, i would have read much more posts saying so, in the past 3 years, you just had some (lots) of bad luck and now you want to blame it on saab/michelin. hell what the f*ck, maybe someone messed with your tires, sliced them slightly on the inner side or put chloroform or something acid on them. you never know, might have been a unsatisfied customer or bad(jelous) neighbourhood.
if there was a comparable car i would take a look at it, but i have yet to find a comparable ricer.
In the US, information on tires -- and problems with tires -- is kept by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. This government agency can force recalls if they find a significant problem.
formatting link
page will take you to searchable databases for problems with tires by makeand model by:
recalls
TSBs
Consumer complaints
It also has a form for consumers to submit complaints to NHTSA.
Thanks, I did search on recalls, and TSB's, and found no reference to tires on the 9.5 and 9.3 for the 2000 MY. There was a reference to wheel corrosion if the owner changes between aluminum and steel wheels on a seasonal basis, however.
Paul Halliday wrote: :: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return :: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. :: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the :: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results :: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that :: tells a different story.
What a load of rubbish Paul. :o) Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5 the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000 accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever. Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".
Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
Paul Halliday wrote: :: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return :: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. :: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the :: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results :: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that :: tells a different story.
What a load of rubbish Paul. :o) Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5 the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000 accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever. Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".
Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
FFS stop reposting peoples' posts without adding anything to them. You will see by working back along this and other sub-threads that you are adding absolutely nothing to the matter in hand. Rather as this paragraph, but at least I *know* that I'm doing it.
On the substantive matter, I have yet to see anything apart from bare assertions which would suggest there's anything which should be troubling SAAB in the US. Someone appears to be incapable of logical argument and a few idiots have joined in to support him. Lest anyone accuse me of pro-SAAB bias I will make the same observation as soon as I spot someone guilty of the same error when defending or otherwise promoting SAABs.
I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. I do indeed own a new Saab. I have indeed had two problems with it that I believe I should not have had. I do in fact believe that a Usenet newsgroup is one place this problem should be publicized and discussed.
I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice: You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the difference years and years from now.
I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove them.
I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:
1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US. Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my Saab.
2) Toyota and Honda have been particularly successful in controlling quality, and in resolving owner complaints. Saab (and GM) could learn a thing or two from those companies.
This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.
"catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in some way.
1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.
You can't keep making this assumption over and over again after I've assured you otherwise, and assume you're making some kind of important point. You start to look a little foolish.
2) Dealers MUST handle even bad customers better than my Saab dealer did, if they want repeat business. The dealer doesn't get a "pass" because you personally don't like my post.
[snip]
My tires shredded, partly because the wheelrims sat right down at the border area between the sidewall and the tire tread, and sliced through them when they blew. It happened very quickly -- a matter of a few seconds.
This behavior not only destroys a lightly damaged tire, it is also very bad for the wheelrim as well. Saab is getting at least some wheel rim complaints because of this problem, which happens at low speeds as well as high speeds.
Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.
[snip]
The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment would not be affected.
But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago, and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.
I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on my experience with them.
Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car manufacturer.
A good company would replace those tires for free if they have some service records of other owners making the same complaints: This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing Management.
You are reeel good at quibbling. You are not so good at examining a problem in the way a QA Engineer or Operations Manager at a well-managed auto company would examine the problem.
I have already responded to you at length about why my personal experience might very well be important to a lot of Saab owners.
... fact is; you don't need to have a significant fraction of users reporting a problem for it to exist in a complex product like an automobile or a computer. With a complex product, a problem serious enough to cost a Manufacturer lots of money can indeed exist in less than one percent of its product users.
As an example, I read that Ford SUV tire problems occurred in less than a tenth of one percent of their owners (one in a thousand), when Ford finally had to issue a Recall notice and the first cases went to Trial.
I am therefore not surprised that this general-purpose enthusiasts' newsgroup isn't overwhelmed with tire blowout stories. They are nonetheless important.
*****
I've gone back and re-read your responses to my earlier post, where I discussed this in more detail.
It's apparent that you didn't understand the basic concepts I described there. I guess you don't have much background in basic QA engineering or Business Operations Management and research. That's OK.
Please go back and re-read what I wrote. It is much more important to you and the major purchase choices you make in your own private life than you might have thought.
Indeed, some of them have.
Once again, it is apparent to me that you don't understand the basic Engineering and QA problems that cause product failures in complex modern technical products.
I was expecting at least a few knowledgeable posters here in the Saab group to focus on the problem I reported, and NOT to start with personal namecalling.
Focusing on the issue instead of the emotional content of a trouble call, is an elementary help-desk management technique. I thought there were some people here with the tech background and business experience to realize that. Apparently, I was wrong.
This surprises me. It is common practice in lots of other Usenet technical newsgroups -- esp. the computer newsgroups, where people are often angry and frustrated, and the threads settle down enough to resolve whatever problem that was reported.
Even the other auto newsgroups perform better than alt.autos.saab has responded here. This group is behaving more like a cliquish TeenBunny fan gossip group than a real automobile newsgroup.
ORIGINAL POST: Brittany Spears is singing off-key!
GROUP RESPONSE: You moron! You arrogant prick! You troll!
I have a Dunlop on the Right Rear now because it was all I could find. I intend to replace all four tires as soon as I can find a reliable, well-made midprice tire.
Researching cars and tires has changed in the last few years. I have no idea what tire I really should be buying, how to personally examine a new tire for design and quality, or what to look for in a tire Warrantee these days.
I had an experience that normally only manufacturers' Negligence would cause. Negligence constitutes "criminal" product liability on the part of Saab and Michelin..
In other words, you see my point but don't want to deal with it.
Nope. My experience gives me every justification to raise these questions; right here in this newsgroup.
I hope that Saab owners like you can either affirm similar experiences, or produce information that would argue against my strong suspicions here.
To the contrary, you guys are showing posting behavior I expect to see from kids in a showbiz fan gossip group:
Thanks for the feedback. They still could have made a bad run.
This is very, very good advice, but not quite as practical as it appears on the surface.
It is just too easy for an industry or product "expert" to make a general statement like, "do the research and get quotes," and just walk away. The real world is a lot more complicated than that.
For instance, we often need to repair our cars because of some pressing emergency, or we are far from home, or the repair must be made under Warrantee, or we can only go to where our Insurance company directs us, or we need parts that are too complex or proprietary for us to research adequately -- or perhaps we have no choice in parts in the first place.
It is therefore important for people working in the auto industry to maintain high ethical standards. It isn't OK to overcharge people in a jam, or people who have no parts choices.
People with money to make purchases have long memories and lots of friends.
For instance: Everybody in this newsgroup now knows that B&B Saab in San Jose, California charged me $275 and took two days to replace an OEM Michelin tire worth maybe $75.
I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base
9-3 coupe.
These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM replacement tire.
The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.
The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely
500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.
******
*******
Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes: Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.
++++ ROAD DAMAGE
I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways. Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my driving habits caused the blowout.
++++ WHEEL RIMS
I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses much pressure at all. Here is what happens:
1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver could possibly notice.
2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.
3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and weakens the sidewall.
3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim, between the wheel rim edges.
4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But that isn't all......
5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.
I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in seconds.
This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.
I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process. Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but they will still be very high like this.
****
Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a little flexing; you're in trouble.
Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often. While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.
+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES
NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.
I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety issue.
I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing my tires.
When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a very, very high number).
This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though -- But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary service records on a National scale to establish this as a product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product safety issue, though.
I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing, merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.
Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them. This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one* wants to be involved.
Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points.
That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just don't want to deal with it.
****
My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was serious then.
You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds.
The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory.
This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well. Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have experienced in my Saab.
******
The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop; and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable.
The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general: Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not dealing with the problem.
My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer issues.
Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires. They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality standard than might be reasonable for other less critical products.
My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little. They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking.
No.
I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain, last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and those points have become a critical issues for me this week.
Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety, customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota corollas and Honda civics.
Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this.
I sure would this week.
Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and verify the tires that come on our new cars.
Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership when we take delivery of our new cars.
Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day, particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful; and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted.
The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account for that.
You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I want to.
Those of us in the Toyota newsgroup don't want your posts about Saab and we think you are an asshole for cross-posting this crap. The reason we are in the Toyota newsgroup is because we own Toyotas and not Saabs. You are basically a friggin idiot who is hurting your own cause.
I think, just trying to remember the tires I've had on various cars, that they are all like that.
Nor do I.
I cannot help you with this, since I do not have the information available to me. If you found that the serial numbers were close on all four tires, then I would suspect the possibility of the same thing happening again, IF the cause is defective tires.
I am not in possession of this information, but it does seem logical.
Well, then since you have a statistical probability of 2 blowouts in
11K miles, based on your own personal sample, I'd think that you'd want to put different tires on the car, or, as you said, trade it in on a nice Honda Civic. You might like the accura a bit more, since it's an upscale Civic at least. I've spent considerable time in a Civic, and do not find that it compares to the Saab.
I've searched the links on this list, and have not found any manufacturer's recalls nor have I found any service bulletins. I did not search the complaints file, however. However, on the 2000 MY Saab, both models, there is nothing listed.
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