Re: GM's Dick Wagonwheel dont wanna rub butts in bed with french

You are entitled to your opinion, but it still that of a minority, when it comes to what buyers in the US actually choose to buy. ;)

mike hunt

Why is it so important to be in the majority? Minority groups are sometimes better.

All I've asked is for you to prove that the V-8 Impala gets the same kind of mileage as the V-6 Camry, and you've repeatedly refused to provide any. Can you?

EPA gas mileage (highway/city/overall):

Camry V-6: 31/22/25 Impala V-6: 29/20/23 Impala V-8: 27/18/21

What would brand of automobile does a person have to buy to be in the majority, and how can that be achieved when no company controls anything close to the majority of the domestic market?

Well I don't look at them and believe them... but i'm sure a lot of people buying cars do.

But I suppose you're right, as long as the process is standard, then they can serve for comparisions.... so long as htey are done properly

And you have a GM union that probally isn't going to get what it bargained for, which was too much 20 years ago. Unions have their good and bad sides, not being in a union, I see mostly bad.

They sure waste enough time, and run the real workers out of work around where I am.

Mike Hunter wrote:

We're talking about a company surviving based on its lowest selling vehicle.

The corvette was lower selling than the firebird & camaro's and someone said "gm will live becuase of the corvette".

How can the smallest part of your business be your mainstay. Thats all I was saying.

out of curiousity, I checked out a better apples-to-apples comparison: Malibu 4 : 32/24/27 Camry 4: 33/24/27 (2007 model) Accord 4: 34/24/28 ('06) Fusion 4: 32/24/27 (since this IS a ford group) Stratus 4: 30/22/25 Mazda 6, 4cyl: 31/24/26

What absolutely jumps out at me here are a couple of facts.

1. the Malibu manages to match the Camry, in spite of the 4 speed vs 5 speed problem. Listening to the general media, you'd think the camry was the most fuel-sipping midsized around.
2. The stratus gets, relatively speaking, terrible mileage. The whole platform shows it's age.
3. The fusion, WITH a 5speed tranny, still gets slightly worse fuel economy than I'd expect.

I may just do a 'small car' comparison as well. I found this quite interesting. Anyone wanna do a full-sized truck and/or suv one? JP

I see why you continue to be confused, you are the only one taking about brands. I am taking about the 'opinions' of individual Americans, concerning the vehicles they actually choose to buy. What I said was more Americans buy vehicles from GM and Ford than any import. Therefore, in their 'opinion' they are the better vehicle on which they chose to spend their money.

If want to talk brands, BOTH GM and FORD individually, sell more than any individual import. Therefore you personal opinion that any particular brand of import, is better than the vehicles GM and Ford have to offer, is that of a minority since individually they sell more vehicle in the US than any import individually. Got it now? ;)

mike

What we are taking about is opinions., at least you are finally willing to admit your opinion is that of a minority. Nothing wrong with minorities I am a member of one.

I don't do homework for my own grand children what make you think I will do yours? Search the EPA site as I did for the information you seek, WBMA ;)

mike hunt

I'm talking about gas mileage but of something quantifiable and that isn't merely an opinion.

Where is your proof that the V-8 Impala gets about the same gas mileage as the V-6 Camry?

So why is it so important for you to be in the "majority" when it comes to car choices? Don't say you're merely pointing out a fact because you wouldn't keep saying GM outsells Toyota unless in your opinion GM was better than Toyota. To deny this is to be less htan honest.

I posted EPA numbers. They show that you're wrong about the gas mileages of the V-8 Impala verses the V-6 Camry's.

I should warn you the EPA city fuel economy cycle simulates very light urban driving, which tends to favor slightly underpowered vehicles that in real life will have slightly worse fuel economy than their V6 versions.

Didn't you read the list? Reports from people who own the actual cars.

I don't think being in the majority is that important. But, what he is pointing out is that more people prefer GM, DC and Ford than other makes. This attests to the quality of the cars and trucks thaey make.

EPA numbers are not exact numbers, but estimates. The actual numbers depend on who is driving the cars, how they are being driven, where they are being driven, etc. What Mike is saying is that when people drive their cars in the mountains (like those of Northeast Pennsylvania - I am there now), the mileage that you get is the same for the Camry and V-8 Impala. This is quite plausible. My father has a Pontiac Grand Prix. The way it is geared, when it is going on down the high at 70, it is going at 2000 RPM. My car (a Contour) goes around 2900 or 3000 RPM at that speed. Based on the way it is geared, I could see that an Impala might get the same mileage as a Camry, especially considering that it takes the same amount of energy to move a certain weight (a car) over mountains.

I could certainly see how these two cars can get similar mileage numbers when traveling the mountains of Northeast PA.

Jeff

Many of us drive the same car, eat the same foods, drink the same beer as our parents. Over time, we find there are other options and try them out. In my life, I've owned two brands of German cars and a variety of US cars, not considering a Japanese car. If I was happy with the US cars, I'd not bother looking very far.

I'd like to know what percentage of buyer switches from US big three to foreign and either stays or comes back to US. How many start with foreign and go to US built and stay with them because they are better?

Buy the Malibu or Stratus. Either has more soul and personality than the bland Japanese Camry/Accord. I've driven all these cars many times. Up until last year, I delivered cars for new car dealerships. Drive a burgundy Camry to Detroit, pick up a silver Camry, drive it back to the dealership in Columbus, that type of thing.

What list?

Unless it's a very long list or those people drove both of those cars under very similar conditions, week after week, I wouldn't consider the results to be very accurate.

Only if you can prove that they buy those brands for quality and not other factors. Even I once bought a Ford for nationalistic reasons.

Then what am I supposed to use, unreliable anecdotal evidence? I also posted Consumer Reports numbers, which I've found to be much more realistic. But even if EPA numbers don't reflect real-life driving, they're considered very accurate (highly repeatable) and are apples-to-apples comparisons.

But Mike provided no proof and wouldn't even dispute the numbers presented to him.

This list, you know the news group.

Niether would I. I explained how the peopel could have gotton the results. I did not say they would apply to me.

Percieved quality is one of many factors that go into buying a car. There are other factors, like the dealer, the person's history with that make, what friends say, what ads people see on TV, in newspapers and in the subway, what they saw at auto shows, what the currect deal is at the dealer (like 0% financing).

Yet we don't drive under the same conditions as the EPA tests are run. So they don't apply that well. They are rough estimates. Even though the tests are repeatedable, they have limited applicability to real life. For example, the EPA tests are done with air conditioners off. Try that in Washington DC, and the eggs in your grocery basket will hard boiled when you get home.

I don't think Mike is lying.

Jeff

If GM is so great, why are they on the verge of bankruptcy? and looking at Renault to bail them out?

Depite its claim that it offers more cars that get over 30 mpg on the highway, GM has the worse corporate fuel mileage record of the Big Three plus the Japanese imports.

Great cars from a great company, HA!

They are not looking to Renault because they want to, that was forced on them by Kevorian.

But as I said more buyers choose to buy their vehicles than any import. So the fact remains both GM and Ford still sell more vehicles in the US than any import, and the have more models that get 30 or more MPG, than any import as well. ;)

mike hunt