GM Dealer Challenges the Toyota Tundra's Ads... AS BULL

At one time, Toyota's share of the truck market was closer to zero. At one time, Toyota's share of the auto market was not quite zero. At one time, the Koreans' share of the auto market was zero.

It takes time to build market share. Especially difficult for to break into the truck market (a little flag-waving still goes a long way in the truck market). But GM, Ford and Dodge should take VERY good care of their customers because, from now on, every time they screw somebody over (like that self-ejecting spark plug issue that Ford's mishandling right now), Toyota will be there ready to give that customer what he wants, satisfaction.

I'm not a partisan, I'm just a satisfied customer.

think that? Any proof, or just wild speculation.

I know of at least one Catera that is not in the junk yard - my next door neighboor has one. And compared to some of the tired looking Toyotas in the lot, it looks great. And at least it doesn't cloud over the parking lot with a blue cloud like one of my other neighbor's Camry does.

Making generalitions about any particular brand of car based on limited experience can be dangerous. I am sure there are plenty of good looking and running Cateras on the highways. And I am sure there are plenty in the junk yard as well (and I am sure there are plenty of Camrys in the junk yards as well). Cateras were never particualrly popular and I suspect a lot of the second hand ones didn't end up in the hands of people that really care about cars.

Ed

I've owned a total of 4 Toyotas. In all 4 instances, the cars *never* needed oil added between changes. I can assure you that your neighbor's blue cloud problem is due to shoddy maintenance, not bad workmanship.

But not all F150s have the Trailer Tow Package. And no F150 come with a 4.5 V8.

You said "The F150 has a six speed and a V8 is standard as well." This is an incorrect statement since neither a V-8 or a six speed transmission is standard (and the six speed transmission isn't even an option). And your revised statement is also incorrect. Go to www.fordvehicl= es.com and build an F150. Selecting the Trailer Tow Package does not reuire the V-8 or an automatic transmission. And finally, Ford doesn't offer a 6 speed transmission in the 2007 F150 (they do in the 2007 Expedition).

The following information was clipped directly from the 2007 Ford F150 Ordering Guide:

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TRAILER TOW PACKAGE (535) Usage: Required for towing over 5,000 lbs. Availability: =B7 All F-150 units Includes: =B7 Class IV trailer hitch receiver =B7 7-pin wiring harness =B7 Upgraded radiator & upgraded auxiliary transmission oil cooler [req.

4=2E6L V8 (99W), 5.4L 3V V8 (995) or 5.4L 3V V8 FFV(99V) engine; auxiliary transmission oil cooler only w/4.2L V6 A/T (992/44Q)] Optional Equipment: =B7 Heavy duty 72-amp battery (59H) [incl. when ordered w/both Satellite Radio (91S) & Rear Seat Entertainment System (915)]

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Notice that the Trailer Tow Package is availale with all F150 Units. Also notice that it includes an "auxiliary transmission oil cooler only w/4.2L V6 A/T" Please admit that the trailer tow package is available with the 4.2L V-6.

As for the Powertrain Options:

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POWERTRAIN

4=2E2L EFI V6/5-Spd. Manual O/D 4=2E2L EFI v6/4-Spd. Auto O/D 4=2E6L EFI V8/Electronic 4-Spd. Auto O/D 5=2E4L 3V EFI V8/Electronic 4-Spd. Auto O/D 5=2E4L 3V EFI V8 FFV/Electronic 4-Spd. Auto O/D

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Ed

You must be very young or have a very bad memory. Early 70's Toyota were steaming piles of crap. The 84s Cressida I owned was still a poor quality imitation of a 1968 Nova.

Ed

Crossroads Ford in Cary NC claims to have 14 2007 F150s with V-6s in their inventory Capital Ford in Raleigh NC claims to have 24 2007 F150s with V-6s in their inventory

Ed

Or he's just pulling crap out of his ass as usual.

Are they? At free, a Cobalt would almost be a good deal...

... almost.

Why would a Toyota driver have to be a frequenter of bone yards?

Dante

So you have never seen a Toyota that smokes?

If you want a picture of the Catera, that is no problem. I don't even have to leave the house to get it. The smoking Toyota is more of a problem. Since they changed the time, it is dark when my neighbor leaves for work. I don't think I can get a decent picture in the dark. Maybe in a month or so. But I suspect you've seen at least one Toyota that smokes when it starts up.

I am amazed when people make statements like "I've owned a total of 4 Toyotas. In all 4 instances, the cars *never* needed oil added between changes." It is not that the statement is unbelievable. Rather I am surprised that Toyota owners think this is anything special. I haven't owned a car that wasn't made in England in 35 years that needed oil added between changes. On my farm I have a 36 year old Dodge Truck that doesn't use oil between changes even now. There is nothing special about a properly maintained vechile not neediing oil added between changes.

Ed

Aparently have not been following the thread. The dicsssion was about Tundra phony TV ads and their 10,000 towing ability. . If one is looking to buy a truck with which to tow they can not buy a Ford equipped to tow pack that does not have a V8. You are corect the six speed, is a late option, not currantaly available

mike

Ford dealer Guide Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight (Lbs.) - Automatic Transmission

Engine Axle Ratio GCWR (Lbs.) 126 - inch wheel base 144.5 - inch wheel base

4.2L SEFI V6 3.55 10000 5200 5100 (trailer tow package requires 4.6L V8) 4.6L Triton® SEFI V8 3.55 11500 6600 - 6200 5.4L Triton® 3-valve SEFI V8 3.55 13000 8000 - 7700

(All Ford trucks since the late eignties have required an automatic tranny if the TT option was added).

Trailer tow package

Includes Class IV trailer hitch receiver, 7-pin wiring harness, upgraded radiator and upgraded auxiliary transmission oil cooler (requires 4.6L or

5.4L Triton® V8); aux. trans. oil cooler only with 4.2L V6 A/T "

mike

But not all F150s have the Trailer Tow Package. And no F150 come with a 4.5 V8.

You said "The F150 has a six speed and a V8 is standard as well." This is an incorrect statement since neither a V-8 or a six speed transmission is standard (and the six speed transmission isn't even an option). And your revised statement is also incorrect. Go to

and build an F150. Selecting the Trailer Tow Package does not reuire the V-8 or an automatic transmission. And finally, Ford doesn't offer a 6 speed transmission in the 2007 F150 (they do in the 2007 Expedition).

The following information was clipped directly from the 2007 Ford F150 Ordering Guide:

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TRAILER TOW PACKAGE (535) Usage: Required for towing over 5,000 lbs. Availability: · All F-150 units Includes: · Class IV trailer hitch receiver · 7-pin wiring harness · Upgraded radiator & upgraded auxiliary transmission oil cooler [req.

4.6L V8 (99W), 5.4L 3V V8 (995) or 5.4L 3V V8 FFV(99V) engine; auxiliary transmission oil cooler only w/4.2L V6 A/T (992/44Q)] Optional Equipment: · Heavy duty 72-amp battery (59H) [incl. when ordered w/both Satellite Radio (91S) & Rear Seat Entertainment System (915)]

------

Notice that the Trailer Tow Package is availale with all F150 Units. Also notice that it includes an "auxiliary transmission oil cooler only w/4.2L V6 A/T" Please admit that the trailer tow package is available with the 4.2L V-6.

As for the Powertrain Options:

-----

POWERTRAIN

4.2L EFI V6/5-Spd. Manual O/D 4.2L EFI v6/4-Spd. Auto O/D 4.6L EFI V8/Electronic 4-Spd. Auto O/D 5.4L 3V EFI V8/Electronic 4-Spd. Auto O/D 5.4L 3V EFI V8 FFV/Electronic 4-Spd. Auto O/D

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Ed

I agree with you that the new Tundra ads are deceptive. That is not an issue. In my post I was trying to correct all the errors you made regarding Ford trucks. Apparently you did not bother to read my post and you reposted more incorrect information regarding Ford trucks with the V-6.

I'll try to set you straight about the Ford one more time -

GO READ THE 2007 F150 ORDERING GUIDE - it definitely allows the Towing Package with the V-6 and a manual transmission. And if you use the Ford Website to build your F150, it will let you build one that way. Dealers don't order many of them that way, but they do occasionally. I had no trouble at all finding a manual transmission V-6 with the towing package in a dealers stock (VIN 1FTRF12237NA36871 at Beach Ford Inc., 2717 Virginia Beach Boulevard, Virginia Beach, VA). I had no problem finding a V-6 Automatic with the towing package either. How many VINs do you want me to post to prove your are wrong? For a normal person finding one should be enough to prove that you can order a V-6 Manual Transmission F150 with the towing package, but you don't seem to be able to admit it when you are wrong.

I also like the way you tried to cover your mistake in claiming the 2007 F150s got the six speed automatic. I assume available in the 2008 model counts as "late availability" in your mind. Wouldn't it have been easier to admit you were wrong about that as well?

And is the 4.5 V-8 a late availability option also?

Ed

Excellent point. Mike Hunter is a Ford owner so that explains why he frequents bone yards.

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:13:38 GMT, "C. E. White" wrote:

No where near as despective as some of detriots tow ratings. I am not pro toyota here but Detriot uses no science with its ratings and Ford inflated their max 1/2 ton ratings because of Yota but the facts are it does not have near the power than the yota does. If you do the math and factor is axle ratio, rated torque and RPM, and transmision ratios, the Yota beats them all is actal drawbar or pulling power. It takes power to move the load, not a inflated rating. Be glad there is a Toyota because Detriot will be forced to improve their trucks against it and consumers will get a better product in the end. Toyota has their act together with the new Tundra with a 5.7 and a 6 speed and they even spaced the tranny ratios properly to best apply power to load (you can hit torque peak in the first three gears by 58 MPH in it at 24, 41 and 58 MPH respecably vs 32 ,54 and 85 MPH for Ford, 39, 65 and 96 MPH for GM 6.0 Vortec max and 33, 60 and 99 MPH for Dodge Hemi. Not only does the Toyota have more usable and effective gearing to get load moving, it also has more torque as well to apply to those gears so it is simple physics here. The Yota has the greatest mechanical advantage over the load via gearing and availble power so it will pull a load better than any of them. Kinda a like comparing a small guy with a pry bar against a big guy with a bigger pry bar try to move something. The Yota has the bigger guy (more torque) and the longer bar (better effective gearing) so the end result is quite predicable before you even hitch it up to a load. The scary part is that the Yota actaully has more true towing/pulling power to move a load than all new gas powered 3/4 and 1 ton trucks if you do the math since GM no longer has the 8.1 and the Hemi is no tow king. A Ford V10 would be the only one to likley meet of exceed it. (we are talking actual towing power that can be aplied to load not weather it is a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton chassis) Given the math behind the new Tndra, if they go into the 3/4 and 1 ton market Detriot better get their act together because if Yota can make a 1/2 ton that can pull that hard just think of what they could do with a 3/4 ton or bigger.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

He trades before the warranty is up. No need to visit bone yards in those cases....

It is not the going that bothers me, it is the stopping....

If I wanted to tow a heavy load, I would go for an F250/F350. They also have a six speed transmission. Ford/GM/Dodge all have 3/4 and 1 ton trucks for people that actually need to tow 10,000 lbs. Toyota is not trying to create that distinction i.e., they don't have a separate Tundra HD model to compete with the F350/350 or Silverado HD. If you want to compare the Tundra to other trucks capable of towing heavy loads, then I contend you must compare it to the heavy duty pick-ups from Ford, GM, and Dodge. And if you want to limit your discussion to big "gas" engines, then here are the engine comparisons:

Tundra - 5.7L V-8 - 381 hp @ 5600 rpm 401 lb.-ft. @ 3600 rpm F250 - 6.8L V-10 - 362 hp @ 4750 rpm 457 lb. -ft @ 3250 rpm Silverado HD2500 6.0L V-8 - 367 hp @ 5500 rpm 375 lb. - ft @ 4300 rpm Dodge 2500 - 345 hp @ 5400 rpm 375 lb. - ft @ 4200 rpm

For towing I would contend that torque is more important that horsepower -especially horsepower at 5600 rpm. Which engine would you rather have to tow a heavy load? The one with 401 lb.-ft of torque at

3600 rpm, or the one with 457 lb.- ft of torque at 3250 rpm? F250s also have a six speed automatic transmission and offer a variety of rear gear ratios? So if you wanted to tow a heavy load, which truck would be the better choice?

As an aside - I run a small farm and raise cattle (I sell around 20 claves a year to the feeder calf market). I can't justify owning a HD truck and cattle trailer for my 1 or 2 trips to the sale a year, so I hire one of my neighbors to do it for me. He has a fifth wheel cattle trailer that can haul 20 to 25 calves at a time (figure around 9,000 lbs of cattle + the trailer). Until this year he has always used an F250 with a diesel to pull the trailer. When he moved some cattle for me earlier this year, he had a new F350. I assumed it was a diesel. I was curious how the "new" powerstroke diesel performed compared to the older versions. I started asking him about the truck and he was very positive. Said it pulled really well and that he really liked the engine except the fuel economy was not as good. This confused me because I though the new diesels were supposed to be better. When I mentioned this, he just laughed. He explained he didn't get a diesel. His new truck had a 5.4L V-8. He said it had plenty of power and towing the trailer was not a problem at all. It was his opinion than even the V-10 was overkill and the expensive diesel option was completely unnecessary.

Ed

One more thing - The list price for a stripped F250 V-10 six speed automatic is less than the price for a stripped Tundra 5.7L V-8 six speed automatic even before the $3000 rebate on the F250 is figured in.

Ed

Maxwell House is cheaper than edible coffee.

Go check their web site.