Timing Belt Replacement

Bill Putney wrote:
Retired VIP wrote:


How about if the pump used aluminum oxide bearings, as Grunfos solar water heater pumps do? Those things have no seals but are watertight anyway, and they run off puny electric motors.
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dbu wrote:

Believe it - water pumps do lock up. One of the Chrysler engines (2.7L) I mentioned in my other thread are known for doing that - tears the timing chain and related components apart.
Also - it is considered very foolish not to change the tensioner pulley with the timing belt on engines - not just by shops, but by heavy DIY'ers. Go on any enthusiast forum, and you'll see that that is so. It is penny wise and dollar foolish.
You might find this thread interesting: http://300mclub.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t 498&start=0 in which the owner is agonizing that, against the advice of those of us in the club to change belt/pump/tensioner when he bought the car used, he let the timing belt (and water pump and tensioner pulley) change go past the recommended 105k miles. One of them (either the pump or the tensioner locked up and tore the belt up - interference engine - he's now replacing the engine. That engine is not the 2.7L (with timing chain) that is known for doing this, but is the 3.5L (with timing belt).
How much money did he save by waiting to do the belt? The same thing would have happened if he had done the belt but left the old pump and tensioner pulley in, and if that had been the case, the valid question would be "How much money did he save by not replacing the water pump (or tensioner pulley)?".
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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dbu wrote:

Water pumps seizing, snapping the shaft, and having the timing belt fall off is a common problem, despite the fact that you personally have not experienced it. While I agree with you that $500 to $700 is way too much, this is not how much this job should cost, so that's irrelevant.
IIRC, the last time I had the timing belt/water pump replaced on a vehicle where the timing belt drove the water pump it was about $370.
A competent mechanic can do this job in less than two hours. It was a little higher than normal in my case because I wanted him to use OEM parts, not after-market. The labor was about $180 of the cost, at $90 per hour.
If the shop charges fixed rates, then they may charge two hours for a timing belt change, and another two hours for the water pump change, even though both can easily be done in less than two hours. This would really drive up the price.
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I warned my sister in law to have her timing belt and water pump maintenance done at 100K on her 2000 Camry, at 104K the water pump bearing seized, chucked the belt and there it sat. Her delay added a $100 tow bill to the job.
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On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:41:51 -0500, aarcuda69062 wrote:

She's lucky it was a NI engine, or it would have added $1100 to the bill...
I had a '94 Chrysler LHS, and they had WPs that would seize, too. It was also an Interference engine...
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I doubt seriously that one could get an interference engine repaired for $1100 if the timing chain broke. I know someone who paid about 3K.
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On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:07:52 -0400, Mark A wrote:

Must have done a lot more than head damage.
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wrote:

I'm higher priced then that...

The 3.2/3.5 was non interference until 1998.
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aarcuda69062 wrote:

I may be wrong, but I think the later 3.2/3.5 was a totally different design. But yes - they are interference, and water pumps and pulleys do lock up on them.
Here's a repeat of the link I posted earlier: http://300mclub.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t 498&start=0
There's photos in that very recent thread of the aftermath of either the tensioner pulley or water pump locking up on a 3.5. The guy's now shopping for a used replacement engine.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Not totally different. The engine evolved which explains it now being an interference engine.

I like the part where the OP claims that there was no warning, it just went. Duh! Ever check the maintenance schedule? It's clearly called out to replace the timing belt and components at 105K miles. I wonder if he's related to dbu?
I just did the wifes 98 Intrepid 2 weeks ago. Laughably simple job. The surprise being; ChryCo does not offer a new replacement water pump anymore.
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aarcuda69062 wrote:

I don't know how much of that thread you read, but when he initially bought the car and posted of his purchase, he was specifically warned to do the timing belt and pump.
Here's his first thread - almost exactly a year ago, 97k miles on the car: http://300mclub.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p 9664&highlight=#139664
Scroll down to swalker's post.
The guy truly learned a lesson the hard way, and he realizes it. We didn't rag on him - we all felt bad.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Looks like it went right over his head.

I'd have ragged on him... ;-)
When the SILs water pump let go on her Camry, I think my exact words were; "jesus f*$&ing christ Becky, WTF did I tell you?"
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On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:17:36 -0500, aarcuda69062 wrote:

Hmmm...the tech at the Chrysler dealer owned by the Toyta dealer I worked for said Interference...
At any rate, it's gone noe...I traded it for $600 towards a Scion tC I bought.
For $600 I should have kept it. It was mint!
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Timing belt only contacts the camshaft, main and the tensioner. Assy belts are usually changed when changing the timing belt, that is a good procedure and fairly inexpensive, belt costs only, because they have to take off the old belt anyway and .... replace with the new one, should not be any extra labor involved, IF you are using a honest professional mechanic. WP is driven by assy belts.
--





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Certainly NOT the case on either engine used in the Camry.
The 2.2 and 3.0 both have a timing belt driven water pump.
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dbu wrote:

If Mark A's earlier statement can be taken literally, the overwhelming majority of Toyota dealers would charge the accessory belt replacement as if it were a completely separate job. I wonder if you had them go in and replace, say, valve seals, and you said, "Oh by the way - while you're in there, I have one lifter that is making noise - could you replace that?" if they would charge double the labor.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Dealership and independent service departments generally use a retail labor time guide like Mitchell, Motor, Chiltons, etc. to look up the labor times for a particular labor operation. They are supposed to look up the labor time for the deepest operation, and then look at the chart for any add-ons, like replacing the water pump along with the timing belt. As for the 50 or so Toyota dealers I've visited, none charged extra labor for accessory drive belt replacement when changing the timing belt.
--

Ray O
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"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message

But they do charge the full labor rate when replacing the water pump at same time as timing belt change, even if the customer pays full rate for a timing belt change.
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The labor rate does not change when adding additional work unless the dealership uses variable labor rates depending on the difficulty of the operation, where they charge a lower rate for simple work like changing oil, a slightly higher rate for moderately difficult work like changing a timing belt, and the highest rate for complex work like diagnosing a drivability or intermittent electrical problem.
In the case of a Camry water pump and timing belt replacement, replacing the water pump is the deepest operation, so they would have charged the customer for the labor to replace the water pump, plus an extra half hour or so to replace the timing belt.
--

Ray O
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"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message

Not according to a lot of people who post in this newsgroup. They report that the dealer quoted them full price for both procedures, even when done together.
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