Timing Belt Replacement

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:36:38 -0400, Mark A wrote:


Ray O. is used to dealing with Old School Toyota dealerships, like the one in my home town.
If you brought a car in for a timing belt change, and it was discovered the water pump was leaking, then the price for replacing the water pump and the timing belt was the price of the pump, the price of the belt, the labor to remove the cover, belt, etc, and maybe 15 minutes more to replace the pump.
Around here, *ALL* the Toyota dealers were like that, except for one, and Ray knows the one I'm talking about...the BIG one, waaaaay out there...
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If we're thinking about the same one, he disappeared a few months after I started calling on him. Perhaps having most of his franchisors start charging him back for warranty claim irregularities; receiving weekly calls from the AG; and having his store featured on the nightly news consumer protection segment, and having his most profitable line threaten to not renew his franchise convinced him to find another line of work.
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On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:50:08 -0500, Ray O wrote:

Hmmm...which one was *THAT*?
I'm thinking at the western end of the state, AFAIK they're still rap-- er, servicing their customers...
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The one I was thinking of was near the north end of 495. They were a multi-line dealer, and my wife's aunt and uncle went there to get a Detroit 3 vehicle, unaware of the dealer's reputation. My wife's aunt wanted the car in light blue, with a vinyl top in the same color, but the only one they had on the lot had a white vinyl top. The salesperson said that they would get them the car they wanted in a couple of days, and sure enough, when they stopped by the dealership, they had one with the right color combination and they bought the car. A week later, when the uncle sprayed the garden hose to wash the car, blue paint started peeling off of the vinyl top, revealing the original white top underneath. By the time they went back to the dealership to complain, it was out of business, and since the problem wasn't a factory defect, no other dealership would provide warranty coverage on the flaking problem.
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On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:52:23 -0500, Ray O wrote:

NICE!!!
No the dealer I'm referring to is at the other end of the state. Sorta rhymes with Baghdad...
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I know who you're thinking of, we had their service department running profitably and customer -friendly when I left the district. Maybe follow-up DSM's haven't figured out which buttons to push to get them to do the right thing.
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On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:46:31 -0500, Ray O wrote:

Hmmmm...if I were comparing him with a grocer, I'd say he had his finger on the scale...
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SMS wrote:

That is exactly right.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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My 1991 Camry 4 cylinder has the water pump driven by the timing chain. I assume that is why the talk about changing the pump at the same time. I took my camry to a mechanic I trust and he hapened to have one on the lift with the covers off and showed me the pump. He said he would only charge me what the pump cost as the labor was almost nothing while changing the belt. I agree that if they want to charge you the same for the pump and again for the belt, I would just wait a week and take it back to have the pump changed.
Someone said why change the pump if it is not leaking, to that I say why change the belt if it is not broken... Just spend big bucks later.
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You have an honest mechanic.
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Not big bucks if it is one of the Toyota non-interference engines.
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My Tow bill was 150, my rental 200, my inconvience 300, not using my trusted mechanic was worth 300, id say I paid double by not thinking about it and letting it break on the road, im lucky it was daylight in a good part of chgo.
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On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 02:06:13 -0700 (PDT), ransley

You guys act like it's the driver's fault if the timing belt breaks. Back in the 1930's, there was an engine built with an overhead cam that used a chain to drive the cam. The chain lasted for the life of the engine and several car engines still use them today. It seems to me that car manufacturers are shifting more and more design fault responsibilities and costs over to the buyer. Timing belts are a BAD idea and driving accessories like the water pump off of the timing belt or chain is an even worse idea.
Don't buy cars that use timing belts. Why buy a car with designed in additional maintenance costs?
Jack
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Retired VIP wrote:

You'd be cutting your nose off to spite your face with that criteria, because almost all of them are belt driven. And the ones that aren't belt driven are chain driven with water pump driven by the chain! Which defeats the purpose of using a chain! I'd like to see the list of cars that don't have either belt driven cams or chain driven with the water pump driven by the chain. The list would be *very* short - chances are you wouldn't like the choices.
Like I said in a recent post - I'd like to see gear driven cams. Those are *truly* life of vehicle - no if's and's or but's. Magnetically couple the water pump (to eliminate the seals) and otherwise design it (bearings, impeller) to last the life of the vehicle.
Problem: Initial vehicle cost would be a little higher (a show-stopper in the automotive world), even though overall life-of-vehicle cost to the consumer would be less.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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If by 'driver" you mean vehicle owner, of course it is. Scant few timing belts break before their scheduled replacement interval.

And when the chain breaks, the engine is at the end of its life. Long timing chains whip, to control the whip guides need to be used, those guides wear and allow chunks of the guide to fall to the oil pan where they can be ingested by the oil pump causing it to fail. Chains stretch, their pivot points wear, chains weigh more than belts sapping horse power and fuel economy. Even short non OHC timing chains fail; in the 60s, 70, and early 80s, you could damn near set your watch by when a Pontiac V-8 timing chain would let go, the early Buick V-6s were lousy also, Ford 302, Chrysler 318 and 360... all had roughly 100K mile life span timing chain/sprockets, which interestingly is typical timing BELT maintenance interval nowdays.

All designs are a compromise.

If you can't accept the responsibility of performing the maintenance when it's time. Otherwise, buy away.

Makes sense when there is an alternative. Classic example is ChryCo minivans; the 3.0 liter engine uses a timing belt, the 3.3 and 3.8 liter engines use a timing chain that is very long lived. The 300 cc displacement does not account for any significant fuel savings (if any) so I always recommend the bigger ChryCo built engines.
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And so you drive a________?
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Exactly how does such an engine differ from the other type?
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We had this discussion before...
According to Gates' web site, an example of Toyotas with a water pump that is driven by the timing belt: 95-04 Avalon 83-01 4 cyl Camry 88-04 V6 Camry
You can go to the web site, look at the automotive timing belt replacement guide, and look for vehicles with the # sign, which indicates a water pump that is driven by the timing belt.
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"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:

But those who know just enough to be dangerous can't help themselves.
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Jeff Strickland generally posts useful information although they are sometimes IMO a little overly complex. If there is a shortcoming in the information he posts, it is that some of it tends to be more applicable to BMW's and Jeeps than Toyotas, or that the assumption is that everyone does it the same way as BMW and Jeep.
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