Timing Belt Replacement

You're comparing apples and oranges. Surely they could get the cost down to $500 each with mass production! :)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I recently had a conversation with semi-distant relative who works in hospitality management, and he was telling me that in the hotel business, one of the problems they have is that once the negative stats and customer ratings show up on the internet, they are there forever. IOW - it's impossible to undo the damage by fixing the problems. If that's the case, I would think the only way to fix it is to change the name or sell it to a different owner (which would also change the name)

- might explain a lot of the turnover in hotel ownership that you see from one chain to another?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I have to ask if the trend will remain to have the water pump highly integrated into the front of the engine and driven by whatever drives the cam? If so, then it would be a shame to have so much of the potential savings (not having to replace the belt at $300 to $700 a crack) on the otherwise simple inevitable occasional water pump replacement negate that potential savings (of not having to go into the front of the engine to that depth).

I find it interesting that the manufacturers appear to be able to routinely design and manufacture a water pump to last significantly longer in applications where it is highly integrated (i.e., driven by t-belt/chain) than when it is hanging out in relatively easily accessible space (like a more traditional - i.e., non-timing belt/chain driven - pump). I understand the economic and customer perception reasons why, but it shows that they could make a better, much longer-lasting traditional pump (if they wanted to).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

There are ways of solving those problems other than selling. I can't remember what nationally known company it was or the issue involved within the past year. Might've involved a food recall. But it was all over the news about how they handled it beautifully by being completely open & honest from day one.

We saw this happen locally in 2006 when a place called the Dinosaur Barbecue (Syracuse NY) was connected with a rash of norovirus illnesses. The owner instructed his managers and the county health department to withhold absolutely NO information about the restaurant or the investigation. He closed the place for the weekend, threw out all the prepared food (even though it probably wasn't the cause), and scrubbed down the whole place under health department supervision. When they reopened on Monday, the place was mobbed. Customers were interviewed on the TV news. Their comments fell into two categories: We see them cleaning constantly when we're here. And, things happen, but they didn't hide anything.

That's how it should be done.

It was a voluntary beef recall last summer. Remember the name of the company? I don't. It was on the evening news for a couple of days and then the story vanished.

They did the right thing, and it paid off.

I also remember hearing a news story a couple of months ago about companies that are in business to, for a fee, clean up companies' public images by erasing the normal negative hits that popular search engines (like Google) would come up with using likely key words having to do with your business. Sounds like the equivalent in the business world to credit bureaus in the consumer world. I wouldn't be surprised if the same entities who - for a fee - will clean things up aren't the same ones that help create the negative information in the first place, just operating under a different name. Possibly with the search engine companies themselves capitalizing on both ends of the situation.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I keep a careful eye on the temp guage. And the Oil. P guage (like it said in my '80 SR5) if so equipped.

They can't all be like Toy of Greenfield! :0

Most dealers are now using AllData, and if they give one price for belt replacement, and another for pump replacement, then they add the two together.

Wait, I tell a lie. It's not 'price'. It's *time*. If the belt is three hours, and the labor is $72/hour, then the belt is $216.

However, if the belt is three hours, and the water pump is two hours, then the labor for the belt *and* the pump is (3*72)+(2*72)=$360.

Even though they already have the front of the engine open and the belt removed to replace the belt.

You mean like the theory that the Anti-virus companies are also the one releasing the viruses (er, virii?).

I don't think it is quite the same. A hotel is different than an auto dealer in a lot of ways.

1. First, the most frequent hotel guests (business travelers) are repeat customers over the short and long term. Most people only buy a car on average once every 3-5 years.
2. If a hotel room is empty (because an unsatisfied guest checked out or because the hotel has a bad reputation) the hotel can never recapture the room revenue for the night. An unsold car may gradually loose value as it sits on the lot, but it only looses value very slowly, and you can always sell it to someone if the price is right.
3. When you buy a Toyota, the dealers will sell it to you and prep the car, but it is made by Toyota, not the dealer. You can get warranty service at any dealer, regardless of where you bought the car. If you need non-warranty repairs, then you don't even need to take it to a dealer. So if the price is right, many people will buy a car at a particular dealer regardless of whether they have the best service.
4. Most hotels are bought and sold for tax reasons, mostly having to do with real estate investments and depreciation (which is most advantageous during early years of ownership)..

What you have said about timing belt change and water pump replacement (at the same time) has been documented many times in this newsgroup. Ray O refuses to face the reality on this particular combination of service items, that in fact almost all dealers ARE double-dipping on the labor.

I can already hear the violins playing now, and everyone saying that Ray is great guy and that I shouldn't pick on him or question his omnipotence. Soon we will hear about his Eagle Scout merit badges and how he is God's gift to this newsgroup and that I am the devil. Fine.

But despite all of this, the majority (if not all) of Toyota dealers ARE double-dipping on labor for timing belt and water pump changes when done at the same time.

I'm ready to believe that "almost all dealers" are double dipping, if you can document this claim. Are you in the auto service business?

First, we only talking about doing a timing belt and water pump change at the same time. I don't want to comment on other double dipping, and I doubt they charge any labor to replace a regular belt (besides a timing belt) that is already off (or loose) because of some other service work being done.

Second, I am not in the auto service business. But this is irrelevant, because even if I was, it is doubtful that I would have first hand knowledge at every Toyota dealer. I am simply repeating what a fairly large number of posters on this forum have said on this issue after they got a quote from a Toyota dealers.

If someone wants to verify the claim, they should get a quote for a timing belt change and water pump change, and see if there is a difference in labor if they are done at the same time as opposed the one at a time. You can call several Toyota dealers in your area. I doubt that most would give you a break on the combined labor on their first quote. They might relent a little if you pressed them really hard, but I doubt it.

Lastly, although it may not be completely "fair" to charge the full labor if both items are done at the same time (as opposed to being done individually at different times), I don't think it is dishonest. There is nothing forcing you to use a dealer to have the service done. I also understand that when dealing with a big service operation like a Toyota dealer, you are not dealing with the head guy, but just a bunch of employees who are trying to follow the rules. A small independent shop may be able to bend the pricing rules for each individual situation a lot easier than a Toyota service advisor.

Compared to the number of timing belts installed by Toyota dealers each year, the "fairly large number of posters" would need to number in the thousands to be statistically significant. This, or course, assumes at least a passing acquaintance with statistics, a subject which most people hated in college.

That's exactly how DEMONrats/LIEbrawls think!

Most of us here have already concluded that about the resident LIEbrawl/DEMONrats.

It's no fun getting a major woodie with no readily available pussy...but it happens...occasionally.

Ray O. is used to dealing with Old School Toyota dealerships, like the one in my home town.

If you brought a car in for a timing belt change, and it was discovered the water pump was leaking, then the price for replacing the water pump and the timing belt was the price of the pump, the price of the belt, the labor to remove the cover, belt, etc, and maybe 15 minutes more to replace the pump.

Around here, *ALL* the Toyota dealers were like that, except for one, and Ray knows the one I'm talking about...the BIG one, waaaaay out there...

You don't? We're going to remove the covers, the belt and the tensioner to replace the timing belt. The water pump is hanging right there in the open after all the other components that need to be removed for the timing belt are out of the way.

You don't think it's dishonest to charge for the same labor twice?

Dude, bring your car to me! I'll gladly service it if you have that kind of money to burn!