Jeep Liberty : Reliability, Safety, IFS ??

How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs or Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the same factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability ratings.

In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of the advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example if you comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower than the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated nearly the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are for all practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more reliable than an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the Explorer. Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.

Ed

Attnews! You got a new email account!

• * * Matt Macchiarolo
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Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster. Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles, but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

Ed

Several models are built at the same time in the same factory by the same people. All the parts are virtually the same (engines, transmissions, suspension). For instance, the Orion Assembly Plant builds Pontiac Bonnevilles, Buick LaSabres, Buick Park Avenues, and Oldsmobile Aurora concurrently. There is no way they are spending 50% more time on the Buicks than on the Pontiacs at that factory. I suppose it you averaged all Pontiac models together and all Buick models together the Buick models might take more time on average, but I do not believe that the difference exists for models built on the same assembly line. If you go to JD Powers site and compare the 2001 Bonneville, Park Avenue and Aurora, you will see that the results are all over the place. If this was a true gauge of reliability, they should be almost identical. But in some categories one car is a 5, another a 3, and the third a 2. This just illustrates how faulty this particular survey methodology is. So claiming that a Toyota is better because of this survey is silly.

Regards,

Ed White

C. E. White did pass the time by typing:

A coworkers Honda Civic just passed the 400,000 mile mark, but that car does look like a rolling rustbucket. He's waiting for one of those push-pull-drag tradein days.

My old C-10 chevy had 200,000 miles before I sold it in 93 and even then it only had minor rust in the cab corners. The Jeep ZJ has 109,000 on it.

High milage isn't impossible if the owner takes proper care of the vehicle. Regular maintenance, keeping the dirt from blocking drains, staying away from crazy drivers, and living outside the rust-belt helps.

i had an 86 4 runner that i took past 400,000 miles (in commercial usage, many times loaded way beyond capacity) before selling it on the original internals. i went through many alternators, water pumps, and starters but thats it. i removed the valve cover to adjust the valves but beyond that, no wrenches ever touched the engine. the 22r/re is an amazing engine.

"C. E. White" wrote

Outside of Ford and Jeep, there are very few USA made 4WDs here in NZ, Most vehicles are japanese. I've owned a Mitsi with over 250,000Km on it, and it was in fine condition and running well. That eventually got written off in a crash. There are many pre '85 Jap cars with over 400,000Km no the roads here. and I know of one Nissan with over 1 Million Km.

We don't have salted roads here in winter, so they only have to deal with sea winds.

If you want real reliability however, You can't beat the Holdens.

rhys

"Nathan Collier" wrote in news:pefwb.27832$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.southeast.rr.com:

Lets be serious - nobody (at least nobody in their right mind) is buying the Liberty to run the Rubicon. Its a road mobile with the capacity to handle mud, snow and ice. I bought one because I live on the farm, and need

If I wanted to run the Rubicon, I'd buy a serious off-road mobile like an old CJ5 or my old 74 Bronco. But these aren't the vehicles I want for the daily commute or even to run to the store for parts.

So what. I *HAVE* tested the capabilities of the Willys. I have also busted it lots of time out in the tulies. The Wrangler has fewer things I could not begin to fix than does the Liberty (like the stupid sun roof), but as far as 'sure footed-ness' the Liberty is at least even, probablly due to the selectract. One of the most important 'capabilities' of 'real' jeep is its ability to last 60 years and still be kicking ass. Liberty will probablly fail this test, but we will see.

Actually, the tail pipe of the wrangler is under water going blub-blub-blub while I am trying to straightn up and get a bite of something that will let it climb up the other side. Every other time through the Wrangler spins out, so it is rock back and forth, etc. Liberty does not loose traction. No problem with approach or departure. Probablly the selectrac.

Plans are to take both vehicles and a camcorder up to the farm after eating too much bird on t-day and getting some real ground-truth (remote sensing lingo that). I will try to get a web page built. I suggested to wife we hook up the two rigs with a tow strap across the creek and play 'tug of war.' Her response was not fit to post. I think I can get my nephews interested. Weather should be muddy but not to cold.

Sorry if I pissed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.

Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has had a odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard many bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.

In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to supervise an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain. Every one of them had things falling apart - i.e. hand brake lever came disconnected from linkage; hand brake lever button fell out so hand brake would not engage; 4wd engagement lever came disconnected from linkage (several times) so could not put in 4wd; power windows quick working; speedometer quit working; radio quit working; drivers seat quit sliding in its track so could not adjust; paint flaked off of metal and door trim; door trim (protective strip to avoid door dings) started falling off; etc; etc; etc.

Now, in retrospect, perhaps I used the incorrect terminology - perhaps I should have said "hardware" fell apart - not mechanical failure. None of the company Jeeps broke down in terms of engine (although some of them had a hell of a wrist pin knock in them for a new engine); transmission; U-joints; etc. And as I said earlier, they are great for off road - none of them got stuck. However when you pay that much for a vehicle I expect all parts of it to hold together better than they did.

Now to the second part. I did not set the judging criteria, Jerry did. He asked if a Ford was a 4 what would a Jeep be. We have switched across the board with Ford pickups now for construction vehicles - F-150's; F-250's, F-350's both 2wd and 4wd. NONE of them have broken mechanically OR HAD HARDWARE FALLING APART!!! So, by the scale that Jerry set, I still have to give the Jeeps a big bad negative number. If they would only make the various hardware pieces as good as the suspension and powertrain, they would have a great vehicle.

Now I realize, I am still pissing off some Jeep lovers for which I apologize. However, Jerry asked for an opinion, which I offered. I would like to think that anyone can offer an opinion based on his personal experience in this group without being labeled TROLL or s*it on. If others have had great experiences, then let them speak up and share their experiences. I can only offer my experience which unfortunately was not satisfactory.

I would love to hear other peoples opinions and experiences - without the TROLL comments and other s***ty commentary. Lets give Jerry as much legitimate information as we can and let him make a decision.

Don

For a real project like this I would have gone with a used military vehicle. That Unimog isn't going to break on you, I can guarantee it. Of course, finding one is a bit tough.

one of my friends has two old ex-army mogs. one he replaced the engine with one from a Combine Harvester. lots of low end torque and very little high end power. so it's never going to stall but he's not very likely to set a land speed record... lol

rhys

I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has

Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study make.

Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000 miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car come even close.

I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of oil per mile it burns...