P38 Range Rover engine died

I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from Land Rover?

Alan C '98 Range Rover 4.6 HSE '87 Range Rover 3.5 EFi

Depends where you are, really, and how tight a time-schedule you are on. Nothing wrong with a decent new short engine, BUT the same thing could happen again as it's down to a manufacturing flaw in the blocks themselves (core-shift during casting), there's no way of knowing if and when it'll happen or even if it will ever happen at all. If you supply to me your old bare engine (block, heads, crank, rods, timing cover, rocker covers etc,) then after about a 3-week turnround (to allow for all machining etc) I can return to you a rebuilt engine with new cam, followers, rings, shells, rocker shafts, timing chain etc etc and crucially - a top-hat linered block to totally cure this known loose liner/cracked block issue. Total cost? £2100ish, depending on courier charges. Badger. B.H.Engineering, Rover V8 engine specialists.

Hi Badger,

A couple of questions: I assume that the aluminium of the block has a crack between the water jacket and one (or more) of the cylinder liners. What happens with this crack when you remove the liners and rebore (and I guess counter-bore at the top) the block? The crack still remains, and could coolant still pass either to the top or bottom of the new liner? I was under the impression that the wall thickness in this area was only 2.5 to 3 mm, so would the boring process reduce this still further? I've always wondered this with replacing liners in these blocks, and hopefully you can finally enlighten me!!

How do I get my old unit to you? Postie Pat isn't going to like me, even if I do use copious amounts of brown paper! Is there some way I can make a pallet/box, and do you have a courier contact I could use (I'm in Hatfield, Hertfordshire), should I decide I'll use your services?

Alan

Hi Badger,

A couple of questions: I assume that the aluminium of the block has a crack between the water jacket and one (or more) of the cylinder liners. What happens with this crack when you remove the liners and rebore (and I guess counter-bore at the top) the block? The crack still remains, and could coolant still pass either to the top or bottom of the new liner? I was under the impression that the wall thickness in this area was only 2.5 to 3 mm, so would the boring process reduce this still further? I've always wondered this with replacing liners in these blocks, and hopefully you can finally enlighten me!!

How do I get my old unit to you? Postie Pat isn't going to like me, even if I do use copious amounts of brown paper! Is there some way I can make a pallet/box, and do you have a courier contact I could use (I'm in Hatfield, Hertfordshire), should I decide I'll use your services?

Alan

Right, here goes. The cracks are completely non-structural and as such become irrelevant when the new type of liner is installed due to the liner being sealed top and bottom and clamped in place in such a way that it cannot move. It is only the fact that the liners can become loose and drop in the std blocks that allows the coolant to leak in the first place. The cracks are, however, tig welded up before the final machining to size for the new liners, approx. 10 thou larger outer diameter than the originals. The reason the cracks occur is due to a phenomenon known as "core shift", this being the sand core of the casting moving due to the sudden contact with an extremely hot molten metal, which can cause the ally dimension you talk of being reduced to around 1.2mm! All this means in practice is that if the engine should ever get too hot, the ally might crack at this weak spot, nothing else. Only if there is a crack and a loose liner together do you actually get a coolant issue. As for transportation, wrap it in cling-film and strap it to a pallet (after draining all fluids and removing all ancilliaries such as starter, knock sensors, alternator and mounting pillar, water pump, upper half of inlet manifold etc etc) and give Palletways or Palletline a call. Last time I used Palletline they were £60 to shift a P38 autobox complete with transfer box still attached from Brum to here. Badger.

Hi Alan,

My P38 4.6 had a piston break up. As it had done 100k and I intended to keep the car I decided to bite the bullet and replace the engine rather than rebuild. I bought a new full engine from RPI. It cost £3150 including VAT plus £68 delivery. It was delivered on the arranged day and is fitted and working great. The way I looked at it I could have spent a couple of grand rebuilding my old unit but for the extra it is all new including heads, oil and water pump. Should be good for another

100k I hope. Only other bit replaced was the flex plate which was cracked (second one in four years). My radiator was fine, I think it was replaced at some time by the previous owner (Jamie Redknapp) along with quite a bit of the front end!!

Gaz

Not wanting to be the bearer of bad tidings Gaz, BUT, you still have a block with a known reliability problem that could well last 100k or more, or could slip a liner next week....... I know where I'd be putting my money, a tried and tested solution against liner slip issues. Badger.

I've had the engine ECU rechipped by Mark Adams to remove the weak fuelling map and thus the associated hot running. I know that other engines sizes suffer the slipped liner/cracked block problem, even the

3.5s, but I'm hoping that if I go the route of a new engine then I'm hopefully less likely to suffer this problem again?

Alan

Now, mark is a top bloke that knows his stuff, but under idle and cruise conditions your engine management runs "closed loop", it's looking at the lambda probes and correcting the fuel injected to keep the engine as near to lambda 1 as possible. So, even if the ecu's fuelling is modified, how does the ecu fail to re-correct the mixture? It's a legal requirement for homologation and I can't see Mark putting his name to something that would invalidate such legislation and leave you wide open to construction and use issues. As I understood it, the fuelling was only enrichened at full throttle and acceleration, when it runs open-loop anyway?

Very rare indeed, in fact I personally have never ever heard of a 3.5 slipping a liner or cracking the block, the block material is soooooo much thicker due to the smaller bore. 3,9's, yes, but then they have the same bore size as the 4.0, 4.2 and 4.6.

In theory, yes, but there's no way of knowing the thickness of the ally and hence the degree of risk unless you physically see the bare block yourself to check for the manufacturer's paint colour markings on the valley face of each bank, and even then it'll still crack if it gets 2 or 3 good thermal shocks caused by things like water pump failure, top hose failure or thermostat sticking. It's your money and your choice at the end of the day, and there are a lot of engines out there running very high miles now with no cooling system probs at all, but if it were my money, I wouldn't be spending a greater ammount on a lesser product, full stop. If it's a distance thing, then try talking to V8Developments (Lincs) 01775 750000 ask for Ray, tell him you got his number from BH Engineering. Or try ACR at Liverpool, 01244 539196. I source my blocks from V8Dev, and then build the engines here, their product is excellent quality, everything that the factory block ought to have been really. Badger.