MGFs...

As 4-potters go, they're a couple of the best ever. Worth it for the sound alone.

Although I do prefer the turbo Lampredi to a 5-potter.

Look at the midrange, especially the 'in gear' times where a 1.8T will piss all over a Puma.

We're talking standard cars - you average driver isn't going to get close to a sub-8 time in a Puma.

And you've forgotten about the midrange again. 0-60s are comparable, but a Xsara will leave a Puma for dead where it counts because of the massive wodge of extra power and torque.

I beg to differ, as they're more a 3-door hatch than a cramped coupe.

Pre-facelift aren't exciting to look at but in black they do look good.

It has a blue oval on the bonnet.... you can't pull the quality card on this one.

It has a lot further to fall.... in percentage terms it may be better, but a, say R-plate Xsara is now throwaway money.

How is this important when buying used cars?

I'd say it'll be marginal.

I've been in several fish-face Fiestas which are truely horrible at even moderate / low miles. Isn't the Puma more or less a Fiesta inside?

It's a personal opinion, I like the look of the 3-door 306.

But any Honda outside the sporty ones is terminally dull.

No matter how far Ford have come on, they've only just been playing catch up with everyone else.

I hear great things about the new Mondeo, but everything before that, with some exceptions (there were some iconic cars 20-30 years ago) has been distinctly average at best.

I think we can safely say you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about now.

Option one) The judgements of our very own Anal-Master[1], Dervy.

Option two) Accept the time honoured and in no way biased opinions of Mister SteveH

Option one it is then ! :)

You'd trust someone who puts 'fuel efficient' tyres on a car when we're talking about what's a good car to punt along at high speed on a twisty road?

In news: snipped-for-privacy@news.ntlworld.com, LordyUK decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

Only problems with the Punto GT are stupidly high insewerance - they wanted more to insure me on one than on a 16v Integrale, and they do torque steer with a vengeance.

I like them though, but I like Punto Sportings as well, most PAS Puntos handle quite well once you find out the best way of thrashing them.

I'd have the MX5, and neither the puma or the MGF :)

That's an interesting comment, about the driver. But you know, most Golf GTI drivers buy it because of the badge. I especially love those who bought the 115 PS 2.0 model (more so if they leave it on). They usually get the most upset looking when I'm still within overtaking distance behind on a twisty road.

With adults in the back it would be slower...

Pah I think I'd rather eat my own vomit. Okay okay I guess it takes all sorts. I'm not a fan of the 167 PS version of the PSA's 2.0i-16. It needs stacks of revs and an eight speed transmission for the best. By comparison, the Puma's 1.7 litre donk can be driven about in the upper gears and it still performs well.

Nor with any other machine. In the hands and feet of most average drivers half a second isn't going to be noticed at this end of the performance scale (neither would the 0.2 seconds difference between your Passat and a Golf GTI).

The Xsara lacks mid range. The Puma provides great get-up-and-go from 2,000 rpm upwards. And it also weighs 200 kg more...

None of 'em look exciting... just like a tarted up three door hatch. :)

Can't you ignore the badge on the bonnet? Here we're on about the quality of the drive in conjunciton with the build quality. The Puma is the best of those cars built on the Fiesta platform.

It's important to me.

Xsara VTS: 16 Puma 1.7: 12

No absolutely not. The Puma is _derived_ from Fiesta components, but that does't mean it's the same. Ford's "just in time" approach meant that they always had a supply of Puma bits for their Pumas on the production run, and sometimes Puma bits found their way into Kas and Fiestas (like Kermit's brakes, they're straight from the Puma). Puma bits are stronger (better, more capable, higher specification, whatever) than standard Fiesta or Ka bits. In terms of longevity, a 1.4 Puma should go the distance better than a 1.4 Fiesta or a Ka.

Right.

Correct.

Sorry but their small car handling has been the leader of the market for almost ten years now. Indeedy when the mark four Fiesta was released it was almost as refined as the Polo but handled much better. Build quality varies, the better cars are those build alongside the Puma because Ford sharpened up their production.

You need to research some more then, because the Focus was considered in the top few of the class even when replaced...

Or somebody who says they have stacks of cash but then refuses to spend it?

You know full-well that 0-60 is a meaningless indicator of performance.

The XSara VTS is *massively* quicker in-gear, and at speeds above 60mph.

And even if 0-60 was a measure of anything other than standing-start-traction, your own figures above say the XSara is much quicker !

Why ?

Are you suggesting that weight affects anything other than acceleration ?

Then you're mental.

Only a nutter would get their oldy used-car serviced at a main dealer !

Bollocks.

Peugeot only stopped making the 106 GTi about a year ago (or was it two years ?).

The Clio 182 is *easily* sat at the top of the tree today.

And if you're talking about things other than handling. then the Yaris is the leader of the tin-box-brigade, closely followed by the STUPIDLY OVERPRICED Mini.

Fester is sat somewhere below all of the above...

...except for the old Mondeo, the old Focus, the new Focus, etc. etc.

You must have been living under a rock for a while - since the late 90s, Ford have been making excellent mass-market cars.

in news: snipped-for-privacy@individual.net, "DervMan" slurred :

???? The PSA 2.01-16v 167 PS lump produces 82% of peak torque at 1500rpm, increasing ~linearly to a peak at around 5000rpm, and then tailing off to about 80% at 7000rpm. Whilst it does rev well, it doesn't 'need' stacks of revs at all - it will pull quite happily in 5th at 2000rpm

Interestingly, if you are interested by such things, the power:weight of both the puma and the 306 is almost exactly the same at 2000rpm (ignoring fuel/driver), but the 306 'wins' above that.

If I could charge that much and still sell all I made, I would too.

How will Dervy respond to being 'out-geeked' in the torque knowledge stakes ;)

I don't care what the press say about them, my experience of the Focus, Fester and Mondeo of this era is that they're over-rated s**te.

I say people were so blinded by the s**te that Ford had been turning out in the past that anything even remotely decent was always going to be raved about regardless of how good it really is....

How little you know.

Mortgage repayments are only 1/12th of our monthly earnings, and apart from a few quid on my credit card, I owe nothing to anyone else.

I still don't see any reason to spend more than a couple of grand on a car.

I could go out and buy a 147GTA on a 3 year finance deal tomorrow if I wanted, but I really don't see the point.