Re: Top Gear....

Just shows what emissions regs. have done for us, though.

Way back in the early 90s, the Alfa 164 Cloverleaf was getting 230bhp out of the 3lt version of that engine.

Hmmm.

Not a massive increase.

All-in-all, it's a great engine, but not a massive improvement over the old 164 24v, even with 200ccs more.

no, a chipped leon should be around 250-260, so pretty equal and a damm sight cheaper even after mods.

Why would it be unfair ? because ever after modding the leon is cheaper and it'd show the alfa up for being the lardy arse V6 that it is ?

But how do you brake that wheel ? An average traction-control system simply limits engine power.

Rubbish. Plant it in second gear, whilst coming off a roundabout (or other sharp bend). Unless you're in an underpowered car, you'll find the inside wheel lights up, and you don't make progress.

Agreed. But you can get more power to the road, with a fancy diff, than without. If you want traction control, then it should be in ADDITION to the diff, not instead-of !

Yes, because of the Turbo. I was referring to NA lumps.

If it's an NA engine, and you want big power, there's no alternative but for it to be way up the rev range. Big power, low down, in an NA lump, would be the holy grail :)

Curves are more important the straight lines :) And you would expect the alfa to win anyway - it's got a heap more bhp !

I have seen both cars in standard trim on trackdays. (driven the S2000 on track myself, but not the M3)

I don't compare cars on normal roads because you drive them in a restricted manner. On highways the M3 cruises unstressed at its 240-250 mark whereas the Honda it is a genuine pain in the ass and ears if you drive it at those speeds for a longer time.

But at Spa the little Honda with 240Hp drives circles around the M3 which has about 350 ponies at its disposal.

In an ideal world (the one without taxes or the one with me having unlimited resources) I would also be more inclined to the M3 for reasons of the extra torque and better safety : I distrust open cars. They never flip over and if one should it's never yours... so they say.

A big -in the literal sense of the word- is the available space in the car: the Honda is build by tiny Japanese but the M3 is build for fat Germans. As for their engines: both are juwelery. Very nice, very refined, very high ouput but mamma mia what if something goes wrong...

Tom

snip

No, no, no. The bigger, saloon thingy, related to the SAAB 9000, FIAT Croma and Lancia Thema.

Yes, and 4WD.

I think he's talking about the electronic stability control type of system, which brakes each wheel to prevent spin, and reduces engine power if both wheels spin. If it's quick-enough acting it can be very effective - moreso than an LSD in many situations, and without the increased torque steer problems.

Andy

I don't think it does. Given ABS, it's simple to control individual brakes. To only control engine output when a wheel spins still requires wheel sensors and a computer which then communicates with the engine ECU.

The only car I've had with traction control is my current E39, and it works very well. Strangely enough for things like pulling out of a sideroad in the wet - you simply plonk your foot down and go.

I understood the earliest traction control systems worked by braking a wheel - those that also reduce engine output are newer.

You could make it fair by spending the same amount modding both then the Leon would look even cheaper. Say spending £1500 on each engine.

Yes, and neither could live with a trackday special, such as a Caterham Superlight or a Radical, but we /are/ talking about road cars, which means they /should/ be compared on road!

Agreed. An Octavia vRS, a Golf GTi turbo, a Seat Leon, and an Audi A3 turbo.

Which once will have, or develop some character.

Odds on the Octavia and the Leon. Not because of lesser build quality, but because of the type of owner they attract (and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way).

No, they'd have to have two Volvos.[1]

Beige off course...

Tom

there you go:-) Lexus is about 210-220. 330 Bimmer 230bhp, Renault 3 litre about the same as well...

I believe it is very much the other way round. Systems that brake wheels are usually called electronic stability systems or somesuch, not just = traction control, and these sytems are newer.

You are both basically right in what you are saying but the question = remains does the Alfa brake individual wheels or just limit power?

Paul

But these are pretty advanced, and hardly common. I was just referring to an average traction-control setup :)

Agreed, but I'd still want the LSD as well. IMO, it's an essential component of a big-power FWD car - the "torque steer" isn't a problem unless it's been poorly implemented (Focus RS).

It's the otherway round. An average traction-control system simply watches the wheel-speed via the ABS sensors. If one wheel is spinning (moving faster than the rest) then it cuts engine power until the problem goes away. Needless to say, it's pants !

There are more advanced "braking" systems available like you refer to, but these aren't common on "normal" cars. It's very unlikely that the Alfa has this system.