BMW 3 versus Maximas

in article xe2Qb.2239$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews4.bellsouth.net, Xpditor at snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net wrote on 1/22/04 11:25 PM:

So, by extension, because you don't believe BMW's are worth it to you, then they're not worth it to anyone? Those who buy them are simply fools? I don't think so.

Rule #1. If Consumer Reports is your main guide for what car your purchase, chances are good a BMW is not for you.

Here's what Car and Driver says about the TL's handling

"Base your performance views on curves instead of straight lines, and the Acura's shortcomings quickly become evident. Hustled through the 300-foot skidpad, the TL managed to pull 0.81 g, which is less grip than that achieved by the G35 (0.87) and the 330i (0.83). A call to the Potenza bullpen is in order. On our 10Best handling loop, where twisty roads abound, the TL couldn't attack curves with the same speed and vigor as the Infiniti and BMW, inspiring less confidence because of its heavier front-loaded nature. Balance is key here, and the Acura's 60/40 front-to-rear weight bias can't match the BMW's perfect 50/50 or the Infiniti's 53/47. At 3521 pounds, the TL feels heavy and not nearly as light on its feet as the 330i, which weighs 144 pounds less, and even the G35, which weighs five pounds more."

"Moreover, the TL's power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering lacks the direct communication of the BMW's and Infiniti's, hampering a close relationship between the driver and the road. We found ourselves constantly adjusting the wheel through sweeping curves. The steering is weighted in a nice, light fashion, but its effort doesn't build progressively, and there's too much assist when what you want is direct feedback."

"The limited slip does its job distributing power to the front tire with more grip, but with 238 pound-feet of torque on tap, there's no masking that the torque plays an unwanted role in the steering, especially now, with the direct connection via the six-speed gearbox. If anything, the limited slip exacerbates the existing torque steer, pulling on the wheel as if each pound-foot were a G.I. Joe action figure in a tug of war." (end quote)

So basically what we've got in the TL is a glorified Honda Accord with more amenities and all the shortcomings, amplified by too much power at the front wheels. That might win on CR's point system, but it doesn't make it a better car, unless features are more important to you than the driving experience. That's precisely what BMW goes for, precisely why BMW buyers pay a premium for them, and precisely why you don't get it.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:57:31 GMT, John Stone postulated:

After comparing invoices for cost per incremental gain for "comparable" performance, looks like you made a convincing argument for buying the G35

Irreperable harm to the brand??? How so, by saving the company? When the 911 was the only choice in the line-up, early 90's, there was almost no Porsche anymore.

And if you had a clue, you would understand the legacy and evolution of the Boxster. And the fact that it shares more than half of its' parts with the 911.

You're the only Poser hear, you don't have a clue.

Phil

"After comparing invoices for cost per incremental gain for "comparable" performance, looks like you made a convincing argument for buying the G35."

Rex: You took the words out of my mouth.

John: But I DO get it. I acknowledged before that RWD handles better than FWD at anything over 9/10ths (with some exceptions like Corvair). I also acknowledged that BMW's are sweet handling autos. I will further yield that FWD usually has some torque steer that goes with the territory. OTOH, it has good traction because the weight is over the drive wheels.

It is with that understanding that I was making the more direct comparisons with the Infiniti G35 brand of "rice burner". You'll recall that Dan's original flame was generic against all rice burners.

The point that I, and others, was making is that the ROI (return on investment) is dubious at best with some of the premium priced German cars.

But, as several others have pointed out, your conclusion about that is directly related to the priority you place on balls-out driving and the thickness of your wallet.

I always go to the BMW dealer when I shop for a new car because I love their engineering and feel. I can afford any car that I want. So far, this emperor has opted out of that particular set of new clothes. I guess my pragmatic gene is just too prominent. Or maybe it's the frugal one. After all, I am mostly German.

I don't blame BMW owners from getting upset when ricers fail to genuflect in their royal presence. After all, isn't that one of the reasons why they paid all that dough?

Good luck, Frank. Rather a crack than a breeched head gasket. If that's what you had, you would have either oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil... or you would see white smoke (steam) coming from the exhaust pipe(s).

I'm not that familiar with the 1997 328's but I've worked >

if you don't believe this then get a Kia or Hotpoint. or get all your clothes at Wal-ly's world.

I thought only investors in classic cars calculated ROI. Did you mean value for the money?

Tom

You could argue it's the best value of the three cars, certainly. But it's not as good as the BMW. It depends on how picky you are.

No comparsion. From what i heard among the 5 wrost cars for 2004...maxima was one of them cnn.com has the article.

BMW3 1st in best car to own.

No such article exists...

Yeah, which is why Porsche stamped them out like holiday fruitcake, and they're piled up like cordwood at my local Porsche dealer's lot. Ditto for the Cayennes. Let me ask you a question; since Porsche now sells more Cayennes than all their other vehicles combined, are they now a truck manufacturer? So much for the "mystique" of the brand, their racing heritage be damned.

Let me guess, you're reading this post from the BMW newsgroup. I know this because a Maxima owner wouldn't be so arrogant as to attack someone without provocation on Usenet.

Your brand is going to make the same mistake Porsche did when they introduce their "1 series" this fall. You guys already have cars with eyebrows and bulbous rear ends, now you're going to see your vaunted marque driven by 16 year olds everywhere with massive spoilers and stickers everywhere. Enjoy!

Do you mean that's not the case right now, or in the past? I don't think the spoilers could get much bigger that those in the racing big coupes in the early 70s...

Ahh, and you know....keep reading.

Doubt it highly. But give us your local Porsche dealer name and I will call to get the real facts and post them here.

In actuality, Porsche sells every car is makes, and usually ahead of the car being manufactured.

Here's the facts (through October 2003) which prove your claims are incorrect:

Current Prior Current Prior Model Year Year Year Year =========== ===== ===== ====== ===== Boxster 228 399 3,418 5,511 Boxster S 152 248 2,280 3,801 ALL BOXSTER 380 647 5,698 9,312 Carrera Coupe 181 168 1,513 1,717

Yes.

I'm not arrogant. I was respodning to the inital poster who dissed the Boxster. I don't own a Boxster, but appreciate what they are - a sports car through and through.

It's not the "1" series that's the mistake, it was letting Bangle run with the design philosophy, but that's been fixed now.

This is one area where to Maximas and company lead the German marquees. Doubt the 16 years olds will be doing the stickers/spoilers though, given the resale capability of BMWs versus the asian brands. Coffee can exhausts resonators will only degrade value, rather than pretend the car is something it is not.

Phil

These type of questions always turn into a free-style fight.

If you keep German excellence and Japanese reliability history in mind, and think logically, here's a few things to consider:

A premium luxury car will always be more expensive to maintain than a mainstream car. Hence BMW's are more expensive to maintain than MAXIMA's. Oil changes are more expensive, so are tiny things which might go wrong here and there. Also, when you have a premium luxury car, you expect it to work perfectly, so you take it in for the tiniest creak which you might ignore on a maxima.

BMW's are more fun to drive, more luxurious, and of course more prestigious.

Maximas offer high performance and a sporty look for a much lower price.

Maxima's are not BMW's, and they're completely different autos. If you can afford a BMW, its maintenance, insurance costs, etc. get one.

But if all you can afford is a starter BMW, but would still like the performance of a 330+, a Maxima is something to consider. For a lower cost, it offers great performance and sportiness, and lower maintenance costs, and good reliability too.

Therefore BMW 3 vs Maxima just comes down to price.

HH

Depends on each car. In general, the Maxima wins in reliability, but in my case, my '98 M3 has been cheaper to maintain than my Honda van and Accord. The M3 has been extraordinarily reliable and trouble free, while then van has not.

Blah blah blah whatever. I work on my own BMWs. They are cheap to maintain and will last for a good quarter million miles without much effort. My E34 has had nothing but AutoZone oil/filter changes and stabilizer links at $50.00 a pop, it's at 168,000 miles and going strong. It all comes down to driver/car interface, that is what BMW is really all about. The "luxury/prestige" crap is marketing. Colin

Sounds a lot like my E28s.

Thank you, Colin, for offering yet another voice of reason here. I drive what my wife considers (and not without valid reasons) 'ratty old BMWs'. IMO, 'prestige' is held primarily in the minds of morons and 'luxury' is what makes *you* feel good. In my case, that's a well-maintained suspension (well, there *are* a couple of urethane bushes in there) with a set of Eibach springs under a stock 535is 5-speed with a working OEM stereo and CD changer in it.

I've had occasional compliments on the cars (528e, 2x535is), but none from anyone who really knows what they're looking at (They *are* 'ratty', after all ...). A few others are impressed with the tightness when they ride in these up-to-250K-mile cars and still others don't like the sport seat bolsters or the ride stiffness. However, whenever I climb into one, I remember all over again why I love driving an E28.

-- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)

My '75 "DATSUN" 510 had a "NISSAN" engine in it. The grin stayed until I sold it with 324K miles in 1995. I still see it around town.

Agree! What is luxury?!? Even the Ford F-150's current advertising campaign tries to separate itself to the competion by offering "more luxury". GMAFB - it's a work truck.