All,
I'm looking for comments/experiences both good and bad, regarding the Series II TD5 Discovery. I've had my '96 ES 300tdi for just over a year now and love it too bits, but a TD5 is now calling. Is it 'that' much of an improvement on the 300Tdi? Will I notice a massive increase in MPG (I'm mainly motorway miles)? Is it really that difficult to work on? What should I be looking to pay for 1999/2000 GS/ES ?
Thnaks in advance. Gavin
On or around 17 Feb 2004 09:02:15 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk (Gavin) enlightened us thusly:
depends what you mean by "that"...
it a bit more powerful, if you go at the same speeds, it's a bit more economical. I doubt in real terms you'll see much more than about 10% improvement in economy, 20% if you're especially careful. You'll more'n likely use the extra power, at least some of the time.
lot of electronics on it which the average bod can do nothing with. But then again, the average bod doesn't, for example, strip and recondition his diesel injection pump, either. Tuning basically has to be checked on a testbook system (or similar), but having gotten it set, it should run more efficiently than a typical "normal" engine set up by ear.
Personally, I'd not go for one. But that's just me.
Not exactly.. The only 'programming' done of the ECU by TestBook is the unit injector grade codes and basic country-specific tune. This allows the engine management to allow for slight differences in spray patterns and opening times between injectors which are introduced during manufacture of the injectors - basically a 'fudge factor'. The country specific tune effectively places software barriers in place to limit emissions exceeding the local laws.
The ECU basically runs a continuously changing tune, it adapts to the engine's environment - various temperature, air flow, air pressure, etc signals provided by the various sensors. The signal values are then refered to memorised values and changes the operation of the engine to suit the driving conditions. This process runs continuously and is called 'adaptive strategy'. The data from the previous journey is stored and is refered to in the current journey.
The ECU will report back any faults it sees (missing sensors, etc) and this is about all you can find out about the Td5 from the ECU.
Anyway, that's my understanding of it..
The most basic Td5 Discovery is a manual without ACE or Self-Levelling Suspension, as each extra system, including the automatic 'box, adds another ECU. If it's electronics you're worried about then a Discovery is (or can) be full of them!
Martin
--
1988 90 Td5 NAS Replica
Interestingly, under the new "cycles" for urban driving etc, the 300 Tdi comes out better than the Td5 - which is a shame as one of the main design aims for Td5 was economy/emissions! The Td5 acheives the emissions very well, but then someone moved the goal posts on economy...... bummer.
I'd go for 300 Tdi - but then I'd want to work the vehicle, i.e. towing, delieveries and very definately off-road - it's horses for courses, the Td5 gives a much more car-like drive and if motorway miles is the main use then a Td5 would most likely fit the bill.
Richard
||| I'm looking for comments/experiences both good and bad, regarding ||| the Series II TD5 Discovery. I've had my '96 ES 300tdi for just ||| over a year now and love it too bits, but a TD5 is now calling. Is ||| it 'that' much of an improvement on the 300Tdi? Will I notice a ||| massive increase in MPG (I'm mainly motorway miles)? Is it really ||| that difficult to work on? What should I be looking to pay for ||| 1999/2000 GS/ES ? || || depends what you mean by "that"... || || it a bit more powerful, if you go at the same speeds, it's a bit more || economical. I doubt in real terms you'll see much more than about || 10% improvement in economy, 20% if you're especially careful. || You'll more'n likely use the extra power, at least some of the time. ||
I wouldn't disagree with the wise man of Ddol-las, but most folks I've spoken to seem to get around 28-30 mpg out of a 200/300 Tdi, whereas my Td5 did between 19 (towing at M-way speeds) and 26 (granny mode). I've never heard anyone suggest that the Td5 was more economical. Mine was the 2001 model with the crap ECU - apparently later (>=2002) ECUs were better.
|| Personally, I'd not go for one. But that's just me.
I would agree. If the guy's had his 300 for a year, and loves it to bits, I can see why he should change. They've only just met!
Gavin posted ...
Personally, and having run a '97 (P) 300 Tdi for only a few months and 8000 miles, I wouldn't be without it.
I'd maybe (assuming funds or company car) get another car or TD5 for business use, but for my towing and off-roading I don't think I'd swap my Disco at all .. all the 'go-anywhere' I need with all the comfort too .. ;)
I'm getting about 30 mpg overall, and a friend with a TD5 matches that. We see no difference in economy at all. With all the extra electrics on a TD5, we've found that the 300 Tdi is also much more reliable .. I mean, even his window motor fried .. my wind-up handles are a little awkward 'on the move' but it's a small price .. ;)
My local Land Rover specialist ( PhD in Mech Eng! ) told me in coversation that the TD5 was left by BMW as a farwell to Land Rover, i.e. it's not the best engine in the world and would leave reliability issues down the line, according to him the 300 Tdi is not fully run in untill 100K and will go on to 500K if looked after correctly. I have no reason to disbeleive him as he speaks fluent Land Rover ! I was really impressed with the results fter he suggested cutting the Cat out of the exhaust - it keeps up with the TD5's now and there is plent more tweeks available to "get a little more" The new 6 cyl 2.7 for the new Disco sounds interesting, it's been designed at the Dagenham Diesel exellence centre so I beleive, the new Mondeo 2.0 TDci is awesome to drive (leaves my Renault 2.2Dci in the shade and that pumps out 150 Bhp)
Steve
The Td5 was/is a Rover design from day one, with no BMW involvement in the initial design and development. BMW supply certain components for the engine (camshaft being one - it's stamped with a BMW roundel).
Does no-one remember the issues BMW had with the 4 litre V8 a while back, with slipping liners and things? All those engines replaced under warranty? It's very easy to knock Land Rover and not to keep it in context..
There are numerous happy Td5 owners, and yes the engine has issues, as does any engine (except, perhaps, the Honda VTEC), but the problem with there being such a large and open Land Rover community is that the problems do end up in the open a lot more than with probably any other company.
It's been developed with PSA (Peugeot-Citroen) as a joint venture. Whether this is at Dagenham I don't know, but the current crop of diesel engines (from just about anyone) are remarkable - from the Focus TDci up to the BMW
3.0 diesel and the Tourag V12.Martin
--
1988 90 Td5 NAS Replica
erm, the Td5 was developed by Land Rover themselves - it existed before the take-over!
but at what revs? Torque? We've had a post on here about the new Porche thing, that demostrated that impresive figures don't mean much to an off-roader if they are not the right impressive figures.
Richard
After consulting the font of all knowlege which is the World Wide Web - I have found out that the TD5 was a Landrover Design firs put on paper in 1993 but the final stage of design was under BMW control - It could be this he is talking about ?
Steve
I'd strongly recommend you look at a P38a. I happen to have one I will generously part-ex for your 300tdi :)
As long as he has no more than 1 days history of this NG.
Can't blame you for trying though !!!
Sorry David, but I've been keeping up to date with your 'association' with your P38a over the last few months..... I really like them though...just my wallet does'nt.
Well, thanks for all the responses - and please feel free to add more. I think a test drive in a Td5 Disco is in order, so I'll report back with my final decision.
cheers all, Gavin
On or around Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:34:15 -0000, "Martin Lewis" enlightened us thusly:
they do say that there's never been a reported failure of the VTEC system.
only a matter of time though :-)
On or around Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:15:32 -0000, "StaffBull" enlightened us thusly:
the original plan had a TD4 and TD6 as well, they mutated into BMW engines I believe. they were going to share components (pistons, liners, conrods, injectors etc) with the TD5, but only the TD5 was close to production when BMW took over.
Sort of - the Td4 was for Defender, Td5 Disco, Td6 Range Rover. It could be sour grapes, but the team leader on the Diesels Team when I was there suggested that the Td6 got dropped because BMW "already had one" (time has shown that not be strictly true) and because the Td6 was going to be pretty dammed good - perhaps too much so?
The Td4 was intended to be a 300 Tdi with electronics, giving us what we want for work and off-road - BMW never did get the idea that Defender is a tool to do a job, not "car" or (intentional) play-thing, i.e. SUV as our ex-colonial cousins insist on calling them.
Richard
The 1.8 Vtec accord 150bhp was an auful car to drive, to get it going you had to keep the revs above 5K whilst fun for the first 50 miles it was a pain in the preverbial on a 400mile round trip. (utterly reliable though)
On or around Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:44:15 +0000, richard.watson enlightened us thusly:
I thought the TD4 was going to be a 2-litre for the freelander though? I rather imagined that the defender was always going to get the TD5, although there's some indication that a more suitable state of tune was and maybe still is needed, with more emphasis on torque at lower revs.
the original batch of TD5s were poorly received thanks to the need to rev the nuts off 'em (relatively speaking) to get performance.
Twas Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:57:10 +0000 when Austin Shackles put finger to keyboard producing:
could this be due to there not being an failure reporting system? or perhaps these engines officially do not 'fail' but have 'errors'.
or am I just cynical having been messed about by the NHS and their waiting lists to get on the waiting list rubbish.
-- Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) ___________________________________________________________ "To know the character of a man, give him anonymity" - Mr.Nice.
I was led to belive that was "Plan B" - post BMW
Bosch ECU's - the designers couldn't poke about inside them like they could with Lucas ones - it caused a few, er, "comments". Having had direct contact with Bosch (give them credit, their engineers all spoke better English than me!) I can believe this.
Richard
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